# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/341 "2011-05-09T19:09:41Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I never called anyone a slut. Good thing **margin** didn’t say you had then. > [@margin](#): > > repeatedly implying that women who have abortions are sluts ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/342 "2011-05-09T19:13:21Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Oh give me an fing break…I will continue to defend human life. Bullying does not work with me. I am not a kid anymore and this is not a playground. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you doing here then. Go out an escort some baby killers to the nearest clinic. Who exactly is the bully here? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/343 "2011-05-09T19:14:36Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I am not the only one who has gone off topic on this thread ya know:rolleyes: No, but you are the one bitching about people in this thread, because you have never personally protested. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/344 "2011-05-09T19:15:37Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I never called anyone a slut. And nobody ever said they wanted to escort people to have their babies killed. Yet you put those lovely words in their mouths. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/345 "2011-05-09T19:17:11Z")
So what are you going to escort them to do then. Have a pap smear. This whole thread is basically a witch hunt. I am moving onto other threads where I can have an intelligent discussion. I have wasted too much time and energy on this bullshit. You are all looking for someone to attack and ridicule and i am no longer playing the game. Have fun everyone. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/346 "2011-05-09T19:19:26Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you going to escort them to do then. have a pap smear. She’s a wonderful poster child for the anti-choice movement. Let her talk. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/347 "2011-05-09T19:23:22Z")
I thik that pro-choice peole have show themselves to treat living people much better than the anti-abortion group. Explain to me again how shooting doctors is “pro-life.” ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/348 "2011-05-09T19:30:11Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I have never picketed at an abortion clinic much less ever been to one or even know where any are located. Quit the MELODRAMA. I didn’t say you had protested, I said you supported the protesters. And since you said: > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I support what they are doing if all they do is picket outside the clinic. I’d really like to see how you twist that to say that you’re not supporting them. I’m not surprised that you don’t put your money where you’re mouth is and do the dirty work yourself, but supporting it is not really much better. If I said I supported serial rapists because I thought women who were raped deserved it and I was glad when other people told them so, what would you think of me? Is that a morally repugnant position, or am I in the clear because I didn’t actually do the slut-shaming myself, I just support the concept of other people doing it? Incidentally, on the charge of me being melodramatic: > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Did I say I am morally superior. No I did not. I live by my own moral code and in that moral code the murder of an innocent child is unacceptable. Oh, the innocent children! Won’t someone think of the children! _swoons_ :rolleyes: Seriously, you want to accuse other people of being melodramatic? Sure thing, buttercup. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/349 "2011-05-09T19:30:35Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you going to escort them to do then. Have a pap smear. Very possibly. Or birth control. Since the assholes picket and harass everyone that may go into the clinic. Very possibly preventing people from choosing other services. Like you know, birth control. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/350 "2011-05-09T19:30:50Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > It does matter when the person thinks an embryo/fetus is a person. It changes the debate entirely. It still doesn’t do any good to 2nd guess their motives, or the foundation for such a position. You can refute their belief with the reality of science without guessing or insisting it has some religious basis. > [@](#): > > There may be a legitimate debate on whether the person in the womb has more right to be born than the person carrying it. They would at least have some moral ground to stand on. (Although it’d still be a complex debate, IMO.) The point is that while still in the womb it’s not legally a person. We can debate the morality of protecting a fetus past the point of viability. The reality is very few abortions preformed are in that category. > [@](#): > > However, a belief that an embryo is a person is not based on reality. In this case, a woman’s right to her body has now been hijacked by people’s superstitions You can easily refute the embryo = person debate without getting into religion. The thing I found interesting is that the whole “person from the moment of conception” argument is relatively new even in religious circles. I happen to agree that religious beliefs that affect society deserve to be challenged , but if the discussion is not being presented in religious terms there’s simply no need to make it so. > [@](#): > > At what point do we put our foot down and say that a certain belief system is harmful? I’m suggesting we take control of the discussion by framing it in non religious terms as much as possible. Let’s base it on facts and an examination of the details and human history. Let’s not turn it into a discussion of religion if it’s not one. Religious freedom is not not going away any time soon either. > [@](#): > > How much longer do we have to worry about being ‘unhelpful’? And what is helpful? IMO it’s about balance. Allow people to believe what they will as part of religious freedom, and deal with the issues apart from religion terms whenever possible. If someone tries to frame the discussion in religious terms then it’s time to point out to them that their personal religious beliefs are not a sound basis for law , any more than any other religions. The paranoia about Islamic Sharia law now gives us a good opportunity to make the point of a secular legal system , separate from religion. > [@](#): > > Again, it is absolutely necessary to understand where this kind of belief system comes from because for people who want to take away women’s (and men’s for that matter) rights, it’s a very harmful belief. If we know where it’s coming from, maybe we can address it properly. Personally, I don’t think this belief is sustainable without constant religious propaganda. I think it’s unavoidable that confrontations with religious beliefs will come up. I also think taking control and framing the discussion in non religious terms that are common to humanity is the way to go. If we want to discuss human rights, morality, compassion, the value of human life, we can do that without a religious framework and use the facts rather than rely on feelings and personal opinions. If someone from any religion tries to brings their religious beliefs into it, then we can remind them that religious diversity and religious freedom means that claiming to speak for God has no additional moral weight. Anyone can do it. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/351 "2011-05-09T19:43:11Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you going to escort them to do then. Have a pap smear. This whole thread is basically a witch hunt. I am moving onto other threads where I can have an intelligent discussion. I have wasted too much time and energy on this bullshit. You are all looking for someone to attack and ridicule and i am no longer playing the game. > > Have fun everyone. In some cases, yes, a pap smear, or a complete well-woman checkup, or even a pregnancy checkup. Sometimes the women I escorted were going in to get birth control. And you came in here, attacking people. Don’t be surprised when people respond. In your short time here, I have not been impressed by your intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/352 "2011-05-09T19:45:59Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > No you have not been respectful to me so I have no obligation to be respectful to you. can you show me one post where I’ve been disrespectful? I’ve disagreed and been direct, maybe blunt, but that’s not disrespectful. That’s just assuming you’re an adult in a public forum and can handle blunt direct language. > [@](#): > > You said you want to escort people to have their babies killed and I told you to go ahead. No I didn’t. Posts referring to people who disagree with you as baby killers is definitely not classy, it’s insulting, and making a moral judgement on others rather than just for yourself. What people are expressing to you is that pro choice people will support your choice to not have an abortion , and support a different woman’s right to choose an abortion as her best option. One is not morally superior to the other. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/353 "2011-05-09T19:46:15Z")
No one expects anti abortionists to live other than by the moral, ethical, religious code that reflects their deeply cherished beliefs. Because, wherever possible, in a free country, people should be free to live according to the code of conduct they self determine. (Within the law, of course!) Pro choice people just want the same courtesy extended to them. It would suck equally to be forced to abort, as to be forced to carry to term, against your wishes or moral code. Abortion will likely always be a polarizing issue in society. So where lies a workable solution? It’s pretty clear that choice is the answer. You disagree with abortion, don’t have one. Keep your kid from having one, write letters, talk it up every chance you get, even protest peacefully. No one is forcing you to live other than as you believe. Choice affords, women who do not believe as you do, to live according to their ethical, moral, religious beliefs without interfering with your ability to live as your code dictates. See how elegant that is? Whereas removing abortion laws, only permits you to live as you believe. The other half of society is now being denied that right. Of course if you simply feel your beliefs are more valuable than another’s, society has every right to ignore you, or write you off as not worth engaging with. I would apply the same thinking to the same sex marriage argument, the anti homosexual crowd, etc. Disapprove of homosexuality? Don’t participate in any. Don’t like same sex marriage? Don’t have one, or attend any. Forcing your morality on others is misguided, it cannot hold. (The horror is the same if someone tries to force you to be straight when you’re gay, as forcing you to be gay when you’re straight.) At their core, all these people are just trying to desperately express their own moral superiority. No one is trying to make them gay, make them marry a gay, make them have an abortion. None of these things impact them in any way whatsoever. Other than it offends their sensibilities. Fair ball for defense of your personal ethic, but not good enough to change the laws, thereby enforcing your ethic on others who do not share your feelings. The simple fairness of choice, in regards to polarizing issues, could be explained to a child, for goodness sake. Additionally I would remind the anti abortionists that for many centuries, what women wanted was entirely disregarded, in favor of the opinions of a bunch of Christian men, imposing their beliefs. They directed the reproductive rights of women for over a century in this country. It sucks to have your beliefs not taken seriously, to be sure. On that front I do have some sympathy for you. Come back and see me in a century, and we’ll talk. Times have changed, your time has passed, dream of a return to the past all you wish. Nothing changes that you’re living in a democracy not a theocracy. (There was no talk of, ‘tyranny of the majority’, while anti abortion supporters were in the majority, curiously.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/354 "2011-05-09T19:50:38Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > whatever:rolleyes: Attack the person instead of the argument. You haven’t really offered an argument. You’ve offered your opinion and defended your right to hold it in spite of facts to the contrary. And calling people baby killers is name calling by any reasonable definition. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/355 "2011-05-09T19:52:30Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > t’s pretty clear that choice is the answer. You disagree with abortion, don’t have one. Keep your kid from having one, write letters, talk it up every chance you get, even protest peacefully. No one is forcing you to live other than as you believe. I agree with this except for the protesting part. Standing outside PP with signs protesting is trying to impose your morality on other people. It’s no more acceptable than standing outside the funeral of a gay person with signs, ala Westboro Baptist Church. I’m not saying it should be illegal - freedom of expression and all - but I can’t get down with the idea that it is morally right to attempt to force your beliefs on someone else if you don’t want them to force their beliefs on you. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/356 "2011-05-09T19:56:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Please explain how a fetus that is living off the blood and body substance of an unwilling woman is innocent? If I need a transfusion, even if I means I will die if I don’t get it, I can’t compel someone else to give me their blood. Your moral code seems to give fetuses rights we don’t extend to actually born people. If I was the only one who could help I’d feel morally compelled to give my daughter blood, bone marrow, kidney…anything. I wouldn’t tolerate being around anyone who didn’t feel likewise. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/357 "2011-05-09T19:58:30Z")
I know, I’ve often wondered why, if I want to protest at Pepsico’s headquarters over destruction of the rain forest, or some other powerful player, the police can hustle me over to the other side of the street, assign me to the park, and anywhere else that pleases them. But these people are allowed to actually accost people frequenting a business and be right in their face. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/358 "2011-05-09T20:01:11Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you going to escort them to do then. Have a pap smear. This whole thread is basically a witch hunt. I am moving onto other threads where I can have an intelligent discussion. I have wasted too much time and energy on this bullshit. You are all looking for someone to attack and ridicule and i am no longer playing the game. > > Have fun everyone. witch hunt? We didn’t come looking for you did we? There are certain subjects in which people don’t have any foundation for their beliefs except emotions and/or religious beliefs. “This is how I feel about it” is fine, but doesn’t lend itself to intelligent discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/359 "2011-05-09T20:05:07Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Yeah, apparently you’ve read EVERY discussion about the spurious ‘choice for men’ argument that certain men like to put forward, and because _you_ use condoms that means…what, exactly? That because you do so, you’re the example that other men emulate? Whatever, dude, go whine about screeds and shit and read a few more sites than this one and Maxim. I’ve asked you this in other threads, and I’m going to ask it again: respond to what I’m saying, not to some imagined strawman you’ve built up out of every evil position that has ever even remotely superficially resembled mine. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/360 "2011-05-09T20:06:40Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you going to escort them to do then. Have a pap smear. Yes, because if you were reading you’d remember that most clinics offer abortion as one out of many services, and abortion services are very rare compared to basic women’s health services. But the picketers always, ALWAYS in my experience assume that EVERYONE entering that building is going to get an abortion. So everyone needs an escort. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=19)