# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/361 "2011-05-09T20:06:48Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > I agree with this except for the protesting part. Standing outside PP with signs protesting is trying to impose your morality on other people. It’s no more acceptable than standing outside the funeral of a gay person with signs, ala Westboro Baptist Church. I’m not saying it should be illegal - freedom of expression and all - but I can’t get down with the idea that it is morally right to attempt to force your beliefs on someone else if you don’t want them to force their beliefs on you. I think it’s depends on how it’s handled. It seems good that people considering abortions might have information about viable alternatives. I’m not sure every clinic offers those. Those cases need to be examined individually. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/362 "2011-05-09T20:48:36Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > witch hunt? We didn’t come looking for you did we? > > There are certain subjects in which people don’t have any foundation for their beliefs except emotions and/or religious beliefs. > “This is how I feel about it” is fine, but doesn’t lend itself to intelligent discussions. Not only that, but “This is how I feel about it, and if you don’t agree with me you are a baby killer”, followed by “I’m leaving because you’re mean to me” REALLY does not lend itself to intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/363 "2011-05-09T21:08:22Z")
I think we can all agree that classy is, well… a bit out of her depth. Perhaps we should let her have a little rest. **cosmodan** , I’ve volunteered at a number of clinics, and visited those ones and more as a patient. Alternatives to abortion are always discussed. **Always.** ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/364 "2011-05-09T21:08:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Not only that, but “This is how I feel about it, and if you don’t agree with me you are a baby killer”, followed by “I’m leaving because you’re mean to me” > > REALLY does not lend itself to intelligent discussion. or a remotely rational one. There may have been some gratuitous insults aimed her way earlier in the thread. I’m not going to read it and check. Learn the difference between posters and the difference between a discussion and an attack. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/365 "2011-05-09T21:10:16Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I think we can all agree that classy is, well… a bit out of her depth. Perhaps we should let her have a little rest. > > **cosmodan** , I’ve volunteered at a number of clinics, and visited those ones and more as a patient. Alternatives to abortion are always discussed. **Always.** Thanks. That’s good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/366 "2011-05-09T21:36:58Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > [Sacred - definition of sacred by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sacred) > Thanks for the false concern but no problem at all defining that without using religion as per definition #5. Sacred s in highly valued. But that definition only provides a definition for the final state, rather than the reasoning behind it and the ethical framework that led you to putting such high value on “life”. In other words, the meaty part of the argument. In other other words: why ? Why would life be sacred, exactly ? I would also point you to the philosopher Carlin’s discussions re: the sanctity of life, and I quote: > [@Carlin](#): > > How come when it’s us it’s an abortion, but when it’s a chicken, it’s an omelet ? […] Look at all the stuff we kill. Mosquitos and flies 'cause they’re PESTS ! Lions and tigers 'cause it’s FUN ! Chickens and pigs 'cause we’re HUNGRY ! And people…we kill people… 'cause they’re pests. And it’s fun ! […] So don’t give me shit about the sanctity of life.[…] I never saw a bumper sticker that said “save the tumors” or “I honk for advanced melanoma”. Nah, viruses, mildews, molds, maggots, fungus, weeds, E. Coli bacteria, the crabs - nothing sacred about \*those \*lives. So at best the sanctity of life is a selective thing. We get to choose which forms of life we feel are sacred, and we get to kill the rest. Pretty neat deal, huh ? ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/367 "2011-05-09T21:56:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It still doesn’t do any good to 2nd guess their motives, or the foundation for such a position. You can refute their belief with the reality of science without guessing or insisting it has some religious basis. > > … > > If someone from any religion tries to brings their religious beliefs into it, then we can remind them that religious diversity and religious freedom means that claiming to speak for God has no additional moral weight. Anyone can do it. I think we’re in complete agreement except for what you’re saying about second guessing. First, I’ll preface that I’m specifically talking about people like this **classylady** sort who appears to want her beliefs enshrined in law. The examples I gave were not really second guesses. They were broad enough to cover pretty much all the supernatural options for believing an embryo is a person more rights than a woman once physical evidence is being disregarded. I’ll go further to say that the recent changes in beliefs are due to religion. As you already stated, embryos were not thought of as persons in the past even though people were more religious. The shift to thinking that embryos are people is due to decades of aggressive religious propaganda by fundamentalist protestants and the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether a person with this belief is even part of those religions. They got those beliefs from the propaganda. Now this belief has become ubiquitous enough that it is becoming mainstream, as poll numbers are now showing. This is what I think needs to be addressed. I’ll also note that people’s opinions are also changing about evolution in the same manner. Just sticking to the ‘facts’ is not working because the religious propagandists are lying with sciency-sounding rhetoric to make their case. It is not unusual to see anti-choice people say that science supports their beliefs. So I think we have to acknowledge that religious propaganda is very successful in couching their rhetoric in a way that people don’t think it’s coming from religion. This has been a conscious effort by religious people and has been documented in several books ranging from Stebbins “Sex, Drugs and DNA” to Armstrong’s “Battle for God”. We need to confront this for what it is. Religious ideas should not be used for making laws or policy when those ideas conflict with reality. I think we should be asking how to confront this problem. To end this TLDR post, I’d also like to say that I think that just saying choice isn’t good enough. Anti-choice people have made embryos sacraments. Arguments like, “what if a guy was attached to you”, are useful for a small amount of people who are probably already pro-choice. The key is to prevent a further increase in anti-choice opinions by nipping this embryo=person notion in the bud. How do we do this? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/368 "2011-05-09T21:57:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But that definition only provides a definition for the final state, rather than the reasoning behind it and the ethical framework that led you to putting such high value on “life”. In other words, the meaty part of the argument. > > In other other words: why ? Why would life be sacred, exactly ? > > I would also point you to the philosopher Carlin’s discussions re: the sanctity of life, and I quote: That’s pretty interesting. The thing that gets me, is even if you limit it to the sanctity or sacredness of human life, often anti abortionists are pretty inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/369 "2011-05-09T22:18:10Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > In some cases, yes, a pap smear, or a complete well-woman checkup, or even a pregnancy checkup. Sometimes the women I escorted were going in to get birth control. > > And you came in here, attacking people. Don’t be surprised when people respond. > > In your short time here, I have not been impressed by your intelligence. That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call me stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/370 "2011-05-09T22:20:46Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I think we can all agree that classy is, well… a bit out of her depth. Perhaps we should let her have a little rest. > > **cosmodan** , I’ve volunteered at a number of clinics, and visited those ones and more as a patient. Alternatives to abortion are always discussed. **Always.** I think that you aren’t especially bright. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/371 "2011-05-09T22:25:53Z")
I only came back here to respond to the arrogant people that think it’s funny to call me stupid. There is no way in hell I’m going to support people who feel that murdering their own child/children is A ok. So continue on with your little discussion. At least my conscience is clear. Not that anyone is going to care but I have REALLY REALLY strong feelings to feel the way I do. Something happened to me in 2006 that completely devestated me. I didn’t want to live as a result. However, I don’t feel i can trust anyone on here to tell them what happened. If you knew what happened to me you’d probably understand why I feel the way I do. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/372 "2011-05-09T22:28:00Z")
You told us a page ago that you were going to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/373 "2011-05-09T22:31:22Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I think that you aren’t especially bright. That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call her stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/374 "2011-05-09T22:33:10Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > You told us a page ago that you were going to go away. I explained why I came back. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/375 "2011-05-09T22:34:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call her stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon. Get a life. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/376 "2011-05-09T22:35:28Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Not that anyone is going to care but I have REALLY REALLY strong feelings to feel the way I do. Something happened to me in 2006 that completely devestated me. I didn’t want to live as a result. However, I don’t feel i can trust anyone on here to tell them what happened. If you knew what happened to me you’d probably understand why I feel the way I do. Yeah, suuure. You suffered terribly in some unspecified way that for some unspecified reason is supposed to make us sympathize with your opinion. And it somehow justifies your desire to torment and abuse women. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/377 "2011-05-09T22:36:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, suuure. You suffered terribly in some unspecified way that for some unspecified reason is supposed to make us sympathize with your opinion. And it somehow justifies your desire to torment and abuse women. That’s exactly why I won’t post it here because of unfeeling/cold people like you. Torment and abuse. i’ve never tormented or abused anyone or killed a baby for that matter…give me a fucking break. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/378 "2011-05-09T22:37:06Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Get a life. Seriously. Come on, lighten up, it’s just a message board. And it was pretty damn funny. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/379 "2011-05-09T22:38:55Z")
I’m not feeding the trolls anymore thanks. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/380 "2011-05-09T22:40:26Z")
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