# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/381 "2011-05-09T22:40:55Z")
Mmmm-hmmm. Suuuuure you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/382 "2011-05-09T22:41:21Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Fine. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Thanks sweetie pie:D ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/383 "2011-05-09T22:41:54Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That’s exactly why I won’t post it here because of unfeeling/cold people like you. Says the person who wants to treat women like cattle. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Torment and abuse. i’ve never tormented or abused anyone or killed a baby for that matter…give me a fucking break. That IS your goal, whether you choose to admit it or not. The torment and abuse of women is the purpose of the anti-abortion movement and the continuing result of their every action. Their claims of concern over “the unborn” are a lie; it is about the hatred of women and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/384 "2011-05-09T22:43:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Says the person who wants to treat women like cattle. > > That IS your goal, whether you choose to admit it or not. The torment and abuse of women is the purpose of the anti-abortion movement and the continuing result of their every action. Their claims of concern over “the unborn” are a lie; it is about the hatred of women and nothing else. That’s right I looooooove to abuse people that’s why I care so much about unborn babies because that’s the kind of abusive woman I am…thanks Dr. Phil. Yup women are cattle yup:rolleyes: Yup yup just call me Adolf Hitler. I am a woman and yet I hate women you got it LOLOLOLOLOL This is so much fun. I feel sorry for you…seriously. You have so much hate inside you that you choose to villify a complete and total stranger…yours tuly. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/385 "2011-05-09T22:53:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, suuure. You suffered terribly in some unspecified way that for some unspecified reason is supposed to make us sympathize with your opinion. And it somehow justifies your desire to torment and abuse women. Dude. She used all caps. Thats how you know she means it. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’m not feeding the trolls anymore thanks. Shit just keeps getting funnier. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/386 "2011-05-09T22:59:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And where did **kambukta** say it was either illegal or should be illegal? Nowhere. But then, neither did I. I used **kambukta** ’s exact words, substituting protesting abortion clinics for getting an abortion. So if my words are unacceptable for some reason, so must the words I was quoting be. And if not… then why did you post this? > [@](#): > > Out of interest, what do you think their purpose is for this? [videotaping] Insulating themselves from accusations of improper conduct. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Intimidation tactics? Gray? No, also bad. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I would argue that the majority of these protests (if not the majority of protesters–it’s always an asshole subset who get in people’s faces), in my personal experience, cross the line from “peaceful” and into “harassment”–doubly so because the majority of people visiting women’s health clinics are not receiving abortion services but are assumed to be. I don’t agree. But perhaps our personal experiences have been different. Have you any data? ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/387 "2011-05-09T23:05:52Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > This attitude you have is typical of pro-choice people who attack the person rather than the argument. Kind of like pro-lifers who stand outside of Planned Parenthood and intimidate the women trying to go inside? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/388 "2011-05-09T23:12:38Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > I think we’re in complete agreement except for what you’re saying about second guessing. First, I’ll preface that I’m specifically talking about people like this **classylady** sort who appears to want her beliefs enshrined in law. > > The examples I gave were not really second guesses. They were broad enough to cover pretty much all the supernatural options for believing an embryo is a person more rights than a woman once physical evidence is being disregarded. If someone has not mentioned religious beliefs and you guess the foundation of their morality is religious, that’s second guessing by the definition of the term. That’s not meant as criticism. Just noting. You seem to think it’s useful to discover the foundation of for those moral beliefs. I happen to disagree but it’s just an opinion. I think it’s important to consistently frame the discussion in non religious terms , and discuss the facts and continue to press the facts. Precisely because of the false information being spread. I think that’s how you take the righteous teeth out of emotional , faith based arguments that stray from factual reality. > [@](#): > > I’ll go further to say that the recent changes in beliefs are due to religion. As you already stated, embryos were not thought of as persons in the past even though people were more religious. The shift to thinking that embryos are people is due to decades of aggressive religious propaganda by fundamentalist protestants and the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether a person with this belief is even part of those religions. They got those beliefs from the propaganda. I don’t disagree. Religious propaganda isn’t any better or worse than any other type. It’s just bad information that gets repeated enough to be believed by some. IMO, the antidote is to continue to challenge falsehoods with the facts , which includes correcting those who make the “conception equals person” argument. If they have no science to back them up at all, {and they don’t} then they have to rephrase the argument and the propaganda is neutralized. If they start talking about God or their religion, THEN, it’s time to approach that topic and point out that religious beliefs are fine for personal decisions but not for laws that affect a diverse people. > [@](#): > > Now this belief has become ubiquitous enough that it is becoming mainstream, as poll numbers are now showing. This is what I think needs to be addressed. I’ll also note that people’s opinions are also changing about evolution in the same manner. Just sticking to the ‘facts’ is not working because the religious propagandists are lying with sciency-sounding rhetoric to make their case. It is not unusual to see anti-choice people say that science supports their beliefs. I completely agree that any religious beliefs that impact society at large deserve to be challenged. I just handle it on an individual and case by case basis. IMO, the very obvious fact that religions , or even factions within one religion, can’t agree with each other on what God wants, disarms their religious argument. That and the desire to have and support religious freedom , including people who choose not to have one, clearly points to the need to address issues in a common language devoid of religious speak. > [@](#): > > So I think we have to acknowledge that religious propaganda is very successful in couching their rhetoric in a way that people don’t think it’s coming from religion. This has been a conscious effort by religious people and has been documented in several books ranging from Stebbins “Sex, Drugs and DNA” to Armstrong’s “Battle for God”. I think the point we continue to make is that decisions concerning law should be based on reality and facts rather than emotion and beliefs based on false information. We need to make that point consistently and present the facts persistently. The message is that when a person comes to the table of society , our laws and policies, that govern our diverse population, you are one person with an opinion, not a spokesperson for God. > [@](#): > > We need to confront this for what it is. Religious ideas should not be used for making laws or policy when those ideas conflict with reality. I think we should be asking how to confront this problem. I’m suggesting how we confront the problem. When religious folks try to cloak their beliefs in non religious terms they are helping us. They are essentially conceding that the discussion should be in non religious terms. That’s an opening to present the facts in a decent respectful manner. The other thing is that most religions value the truth, which automatically adds weight to real facts. When the discussion appears to be an attack on religious beliefs we lose an opportunity for progress. It’s part of the “I support freedom of religion, believe what you will, just don’t impose your beliefs on others” technique. > [@](#): > > To end this TLDR post, I’d also like to say that I think that just saying choice isn’t good enough. Anti-choice people have made embryos sacraments. Arguments like, “what if a guy was attached to you”, are useful for a small amount of people who are probably already pro-choice. The key is to prevent a further increase in anti-choice opinions by nipping this embryo=person notion in the bud. How do we do this? Maybe. I find the “not forced to give a transfusion” argument interesting. I find it interesting that most anti abortion folks will call it killing babies they don’t support laws that would charge women and providers as murderers. An interesting contradiction that brings their own convictions in question. Ultimately though I think the real facts available to us are even more compelling than semantic arguments and need to be out there as often as possible. It takes time and effort but reality, facts, sound moral proposals, gradually win out. That will eventually turn the tide in SSM as well, because there are simply no sound fact based reasonable arguments against it left. ---
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/389 "2011-05-09T23:15:24Z")
Obvious troll is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/390 "2011-05-09T23:15:28Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Dude. She used all caps. Thats how you know she means it. > Shit just keeps getting funnier. Now she’s LOLing at us. It does not get any sadder than that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/391 "2011-05-09T23:16:20Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That’s right I looooooove to abuse people that’s why I care so much about unborn babies because that’s the kind of abusive woman I am…thanks Dr. Phil. I see no reason to believe that you really care about “unborn babies” in the slightest any more than the rest of the anti-abortionists do. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I am a woman and yet I hate women you got it LOLOLOLOLOL Women hating, oppressing and hurting other women is not even remotely rare (any more than men oppressing men is). And that of course assumes that you actually _are_ a woman, which we have no way of knowing. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I feel sorry for you…seriously. You have so much hate inside you that you choose to villify a complete and total stranger…yours tuly. :rolleyes: Oh, please. As if it takes some sort of burning hatred to “vilify” someone over the internet. And it isn’t like you haven’t been insulting people right and left; if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/392 "2011-05-09T23:18:48Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Did I say I am morally superior. No I did not. I live by my own moral code and in that moral code the murder of an innocent child is unacceptable. However, the definition of what constitutes an innocent child is defined by law, and does not agree with your definition. Now I _know_ you cite a higher law, but you have to recognize that your definition is not shared by the people you are trying to convince. If you insist in calling it murder, I’d like to point out there are valid medical reasons for abortion that do not include birth control, and there are cases where saving the life of a mother at the expense of the life of an unborn human fetus is not only permissible, but laudable. Why should _you_ be the gatekeeper for someone else’s healthcare? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what are you doing here then. Go out an escort some baby killers to the nearest clinic. That last is a dire insult both to the escorts and the people they escort. You are accusing each and every one of them of killing babies, despite being told that most people going to Planned Parenthood are there for other issues. You seem to believe that the only reason anyone would go to a Planned Parenthood clinic is to have an abortion. Various people have stated facts to the contrary, but so long as even one person might be going to the clinic for an abortion “of convenience” that does not give protesters the right to act as though each and every person going into a clinic is a baby-killer or an accomplice to baby killing any more than it’s right to treat every military veteran as a murderer because some military personnel actually may have murdered someone. Protesters do an injustice to their cause by harassing everyone using a clinic in the mistaken belief that if they harass everyone, at least the “guilty” ones will hear the message. How would you feel if a sect (not necessarily Christian) felt that any procedure that removes tissue (a mastectomy for breast cancer, perhaps?), approached you as you neared your doctor’s office, attempting to dissuade you from going to a doctor because he has, on occasion, removed tumors and performed various other -ectomies? Would it be harassment if someone camped out on your clinic’s doorstep and showed pictures of amputated body parts, trying to talk you out of throwing away G-d’s gifts? What business is it theirs anyway? Maybe you have allergies or perhaps an upset stomach. Even if you did have a condition that required tissue removal, and you were okay with that, would you even want run the gantlet into your doctor’s office while they berated you for throwing away precious body parts? You want to convince people not to have abortions? Do it in a civil manner that respects both your beliefs and the dignity of the person you are trying to convince. Recognize also that not only will you not convince everybody, you might not convince many at all. Failing to do so undermines your message of love with the (hopefully unintended) message of “You shouldn’t have access to _any_ healthcare if it offers procedures we don’t like”. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/393 "2011-05-09T23:19:23Z")
Der Trihs: I’ll send you a lock of my hair so that you can have the DNA analyzed by an independent lab as well a copy of my birth certificate. I have 2 X chromosomes. I’ll also send you an ultrasound showing my ovaries, uterus and fallopian tubes…LOL ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/394 "2011-05-09T23:22:50Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I only came back here to respond to the arrogant people that think it’s funny to call me stupid. There is no way in hell I’m going to support people who feel that murdering their own child/children is A ok. > So continue on with your little discussion. At least my conscience is clear. > > Not that anyone is going to care but I have REALLY REALLY strong feelings to feel the way I do. Something happened to me in 2006 that completely devestated me. I didn’t want to live as a result. However, I don’t feel i can trust anyone on here to tell them what happened. If you knew what happened to me you’d probably understand why I feel the way I do. I don’t know what happened to you but whatever it was it doesn’t justify the way you’re judging others. Nobody is arguing that you shouldn’t feel strongly about your personal decisions about yourself. A traumatic experience may be a **reason** that you judge others so harshly , but that doesn’t make it okay, or acceptable to those who disagree. Maybe it’s a subject that you shouldn’t try to discuss objectively or factually, because it’s too emotional for you. Just a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/395 "2011-05-09T23:23:35Z")
There. You’ve been LOL’ed at again. That should show you. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/396 "2011-05-09T23:25:17Z")
[quote=“cosmosdan, post:394, topic:580935”] I don’t know what happened to you but whatever it was it doesn’t justify the way you’re judging others. Nobody is arguing that you shouldn’t feel strongly about your personal decisions about yourself. A traumatic experience may be a **reason** that you judge others so harshly , but that doesn’t make it okay, or acceptable to those who disagree. \*\*Maybe it’s a subject that you shouldn’t try to discuss objectively or factually, because it’s too emotional for you. Just a suggestion.[/\*\*QUOTE] Thank you for your insight. You make a really good point here. It is too emotional for me and I have a really good reason for being so emotional about the subject of abortion. I am coming off so strong and so opinionated and I can’t fully explain why on here. I really don’t mean to offend. Again thank you. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/397 "2011-05-09T23:26:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > There. You’ve been LOL’ed at again. That should show you. I was seriously trying to be funny. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/398 "2011-05-09T23:27:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call her stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Get a life. Seriously. Ah - it’s OK when _you_ do it - got it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/399 "2011-05-09T23:36:13Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I was seriously trying to be funny. For someone who thinks that we are talking about murder, you seem to be the only one laughing. Has this bizarre approach of both calling people names and laughing in their face ever worked before? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/400 "2011-05-09T23:37:12Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Thank you for your insight. You make a really good point here. It is too emotional for me and I have a really good reason for being so emotional about the subject of abortion. I am coming off so strong and so opinionated and I can’t fully explain why on here. I really don’t mean to offend. > Again thank you. You’re welcome. Thank you for this bit of honesty. On a message board we often don’t know people’s background or experiences so we can only respond to what they post at face value. It’s not intended to be mean, just blunt. {this is the pit, so it can get mean here} [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=21)