# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/421 "2011-05-10T02:28:57Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Nonetheless it needs to be acknowledged that there ARE sincere pro-life folks out there. Like what, a few dozen? This is like trying to argue during the 50s/60s that we shouldn’t bash segregationists, that surely there _must_ be a whole lot of well meaning but misguided ones out there, no matter how it looks like. Again; the anti-abortion moment is a hate movement, a movement that revolves around bigotry against women. It is about hurting women. It is no more well meaning than the Aryan Nation or similar hate groups. Pretending that the anti-abortion movement must be full of well meaning but misguided people is just a fetish of the modern Left; for some reason the modern American Left is generally unwilling to admit how nasty the Right truly is no matter how blatantly nasty they become. This is one reason the Left has been doing so badly the last few decades. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/422 "2011-05-10T02:39:38Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I don’t expect any of you pro-choicers to follow my moral values. Al I know is that my conscience is clear. Piffle. If you are working at any level to deny abortions or try to get the laws changed, then you not only expect us to follow your moral values, you are trying to force them on us. If your conscience really was clear, you wouldn’t be trying to force others to do things they don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/423 "2011-05-10T03:20:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Like what, a few dozen? This is like trying to argue during the 50s/60s that we shouldn’t bash segregationists, that surely there _must_ be a whole lot of well meaning but misguided ones out there, no matter how it looks like. Again; the anti-abortion moment is a hate movement, a movement that revolves around bigotry against women. It is about hurting women. It is no more well meaning than the Aryan Nation or similar hate groups. Pretending that the anti-abortion movement must be full of well meaning but misguided people is just a fetish of the modern Left; for some reason the modern American Left is generally unwilling to admit how nasty the Right truly is no matter how blatantly nasty they become. This is one reason the Left has been doing so badly the last few decades. There’s no doubt that many of the “pro-life” movement ARE evil–just look for the ones who are also anti-contraception, pro-violence, pro-death-penalty, etc. However, that doesn’t describe all of them. The comparison to segregationists is not acceptable. There is room for a moral debate over “right to bodily autonomy” vs. “right (of the fetus) to life”, and that debate does not necessarily have to include peripheral issues like welfare, contraception, and the like.. There is no room for any moral debate over “whites are better than blacks”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/424 "2011-05-10T03:25:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The comparison to segregationists is not acceptable. There is room for a moral debate over “right to bodily autonomy” vs. “right (of the fetus) to life”, _\_ No there isn’t. A fetus is a _thing_, and subordinating a woman’s needs or desires to a _thing_ is oppression, period. The only reason the “debate” exists is the attempt to harass and oppress women. That’s why no one is arguing for the rights of tumors even though they are just as alive as any fetus. This is just as morally one sided as the fight against segregation was. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/425 "2011-05-10T06:45:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Like what, a few dozen? This is like trying to argue during the 50s/60s that we shouldn’t bash segregationists, that surely there _must_ be a whole lot of well meaning but misguided ones out there, no matter how it looks like. Again; the anti-abortion moment is a hate movement, a movement that revolves around bigotry against women. It is about hurting women. It is no more well meaning than the Aryan Nation or similar hate groups. Pretending that the anti-abortion movement must be full of well meaning but misguided people is just a fetish of the modern Left; for some reason the modern American Left is generally unwilling to admit how nasty the Right truly is no matter how blatantly nasty they become. This is one reason the Left has been doing so badly the last few decades. You’re a fucking lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/426 "2011-05-10T06:56:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s why no one is arguing for the rights of tumors even though they are just as alive as any fetus. Or it could be because they are just some extraneous flesh caused by a disease, that does nothing but (quite often) kill the person involved, whereas a fetus is a stage in ordinary reproduction and will grow into a person, all else being equal. As always, I agree with your position overall but your ability to ramp it up till you come across as a fucking lunatic with no grip on reality never ceases to amaze. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/427 "2011-05-10T07:19:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re a fucking lunatic. Hardly. I’m just someone who has watched the anti-abortionists consistently act in ways that harm women (and _don’t_ reduce abortions, much less help the “babies” they supposedly care about), and who has watched the Left bend over backward to pretend the Right is civilized and can be compromised with no matter how crazy and extreme the Right collectively gets. I’m not interested in catering to the fantasy that these are well meaning people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/428 "2011-05-10T07:29:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hardly. I’m just someone who has watched the anti-abortionists consistently act in ways that harm women (and _don’t_ reduce abortions, much less help the “babies” they supposedly care about), and who has watched the Left bend over backward to pretend the Right is civilized and can be compromised with no matter how crazy and extreme the Right collectively gets. I’m not interested in catering to the fantasy that these are well meaning people. The observations of the irrational naturally lead to irrational conclusions. You’re so far around the bend, you’ve managed to perceive the pro-life movement as an anti-women hate group, which makes it unique in being the first hate group in existence that includes in its membership a proportional number of the group they supposedly hate. Your comparison of the pro-life lobby to segregationists would only make sense if one in ten Klansmen looked like [this.](http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=912500920889&id=31eae1940518b936e415e6160699db3f&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.morethings.com%2Ffan%2Fblazing_saddles%2Fcleavon_little-klan_outfit.jpg) Which, pro-tip from the land of the sane, they do not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/429 "2011-05-10T07:45:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re so far around the bend, you’ve managed to perceive the pro-life movement as an anti-women hate group, which makes it unique in being the first hate group in existence that includes in its membership a proportional number of the group they supposedly hate. Plenty of groups persecute their own; just look at all the women who engage in genital mutilation, or all the men who have hurt or killed other men for not fitting some official definition of masculinity. Plenty of religious groups that openly regard women as inferior have memberships that are half female or more. It’s not only not “the first group in history”; it isn’t even unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/430 "2011-05-10T07:50:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Plenty of groups persecute their own; just look at all the women who engage in genital mutilation, or all the men who have hurt or killed other men for not fitting some official definition of masculinity. Plenty of religious groups that openly regard women as inferior have memberships that are half female or more. It’s not only not “the first group in history”; it isn’t even unusual. Like I said. Fucking lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/431 "2011-05-10T07:55:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Plenty of groups persecute their own; just look at all the women who engage in genital mutilation, or all the men who have hurt or killed other men for not fitting some official definition of masculinity. Plenty of religious groups that openly regard women as inferior have memberships that are half female or more. It’s not only not “the first group in history”; it isn’t even unusual. The assumption that these people hate themselves is just silly pop psych with no solid foundation. Either the women in these groups hate themselves or they have other reasons for doing what they do. I’d give you a clue about which if I thought you were capable of understanding but you aren’t because you are a fucking lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/432 "2011-05-10T07:58:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Like I said. Fucking lunatic. Repeating that doesn’t make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/433 "2011-05-10T08:18:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Repeating that doesn’t make it true. Fair point: it’s not my repeating it that makes it true, it’s your total disconnection from observable reality that makes it true. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/434 "2011-05-10T12:58:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Like what, a few dozen? It is no more well meaning than the Aryan Nation or similar hate groups. . I have friends and relatives that oppose abortion. This is completely wrong , but the kind of extremism we expect from you. For a lot of people who oppose abortion it’s hard for them to understand why anyone would voluntarily terminate a pregnancy. They’ve been surrounded by those who casually agree with them and fed the propaganda. They are decent people who just haven’t spent any time hearing the other side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/435 "2011-05-10T13:29:15Z")
Abortion is illegal here except when there would be reasonable chance of grave harm to the life or health of the mother. Most women travel to mainland UK for self-funded legal abortions. A few (about 100 a year) find sympathetic local obstetricians and psychiatrists who will perform the abortions here- basically exploiting the grey areas inherent within the current legislation. Many other women use online pharmacies, [Women on Waves](http://www.womenonwaves.org/) or the thriving local black market in Misoprostol (prescribed legally and legitimately as an ulcer drug or as a stomach protecting ingredient in a compound analgesic) to obtain illegal medical abortions. As a medical abortion will present the same way as a natural miscarriage, should the woman need medical attention, the true scale of DIY medical abortions here is unknown. I suspect, based on things my patients have told me in confidence, that it is significant. Making it illegal doesn’t make it go away. I can’t tell my patients about WOW without breaking the law. If they are planning a DIY abortion, I’d rather they got the proper medications, rather than Og knows what from an unregulated online pharmacy or bought off the street- but legally I can’t give any information that might be seen as aiding an illegal act. I can’t tell patients about Swiss suicide clinics either, but that is another debate entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/436 "2011-05-10T13:33:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Making it illegal doesn’t make it go away. QFT. I keep saying that it’s EASY to perform an abortion. Very, very easy. The tricky bit is performing it safely. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/437 "2011-05-10T14:20:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No there isn’t. A fetus is a _thing_, and subordinating a woman’s needs or desires to a _thing_ is oppression, period. The only reason the “debate” exists is the attempt to harass and oppress women. That’s why no one is arguing for the rights of tumors even though they are just as alive as any fetus. This is just as morally one sided as the fight against segregation was. A hypothetical for you: Suppose a woman is pregnant with a child she wants to give birth to. She is assaulted, and the process of the assault causes her to miscarry. In many states, the criminal who committed the assault will be punished more severely, due to the miscarriage, than a perpetrator of a similar assault on a non-pregnant person. Do you believe that this is good law or bad law? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/438 "2011-05-10T14:27:52Z")
The worst anti-abortion nightmare I’ve read about is the case of [Nancy Klein](http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20119654,00.html). Her husband, her parents and her doctors all agreed that an abortion was in her best interests. Yet two total strangers fought to stop it because they knew Ms. Klein would not want it. Fucking assholes stepped into a family tragedy that should have remained private. ---
**Author:** ![Inthewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Inthewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inthewater)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/439 "2011-05-10T14:35:59Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Classyladyhp, I don’t know if you’d be willing to take a look at some of the stories that are posted on the website **[www.iamdrtiller.com](http://www.iamdrtiller.com)**, but I really wish you would. It is a tribute to Dr. Tiller, a man whose life’s work was helping women, advocating for women’s rights, and performing abortions. He was murdered in cold blood by one of the “pro-lifers,” and his absence has left a gaping hole of need that was once covered by him. > > The anecdotes that are posted there are from abortion workers of all types. Some talk about what made them change their minds about the “pro-life” stance they had believed in for most of their lives. Others talk about the fear they feel every day when they walk through a hoard of protestors to get to work. And yes, some explain what drew them towards a career as an abortion provider. > > Before you make assumptions about the people I just described, just take a look at the site and read through some of their accounts of working in what is now, at times, a life-threatening career. Read about what inspires them to bravely walk through aggressive, intimidating crowds every day they go to work. Read about the abortion doctor who discreetly provided an abortion for one of the women who protests outside her clinic every day (which isn’t rare at all), and continues to do so even after exercising her freedom to choose. > The people who work in abortion services vary in age, education, race, and gender. And they come from all sorts of backgrounds and income levels, just like the “types” of women who find themselves in need of an abortion. > > I’m not trying to change anyone’s stance on abortion, but I would like to see more effort and accuracy on the part of those who would like to see abortion become illegal again. The very least you can do is inform yourself about the women who get abortions and the doctors who provide them. I find \*\*[www.iamdrtiller.com](http://www.iamdrtiller.com) \*\*compelling on several levels, and if you give it a chance it might help you gain a little understanding for those you seem to hold in such contempt. And frankly, I think it would be helpful for both sides of the debate to try to learn about their opponent’s point-of view. > > I may be idealistic, but if we were all better informed, we might be able to talk to one another from a place of compassion and understanding–instead of beating our heads against walls like we do now, our debates and vitriolic rants could possibly become a little more productive, and a lot more civilized. But I won’t hold my breath. Totally floored by this site, Amazing, honest and compelling. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/440 "2011-05-10T14:37:21Z")
I’m not going to argue Der Trihs is not a lunatic, but you guys are summarily dismissing an argument that has some merit. You can indeed be part of a group that hates you. You do this by actively limiting that which offends. Women do this by restricting that which makes them different from men, reproduction. Homosexuals do it by limiting the outward appearance of their attraction to the same sex. Race is a thornier issue, but is over come by ‘acting’ the race that’s respected. Yes an African-American isn’t going to be included in the KKK, but that’s not the only kind or degree of hate out there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=23)