# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/461 "2011-05-10T19:49:31Z")
> [@campp](#): > > Another way to put it: “If you don’t want an abortion, well then, don’t have one.” I feel the same way about murder. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/462 "2011-05-10T19:51:02Z")
Isn’t it neat that there’s no way for anyone to compel you to commit murder, then? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/463 "2011-05-10T20:22:19Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > A hypothetical for you: Suppose a woman is pregnant with a child she wants to give birth to. She is assaulted, and the process of the assault causes her to miscarry. > In many states, the criminal who committed the assault will be punished more severely, due to the miscarriage, than a perpetrator of a similar assault on a non-pregnant person. > > Do you believe that this is good law or bad law? Why? It’s a good law because the miscarriage means that the woman loses something that she wanted. If someone assaults another person, that’s assault. And if the assaulter ALSO damages property, that’s another charge. Or if the assaulter causes a broken limb, that’s more serious that a bruise. Or, as I understand it, if the assaulter attacks someone who’s got medical problems, and makes the problems worse, that’s a more serious crime. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/464 "2011-05-10T20:31:00Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have seen protestors grab people’s arms and forced literature into their hands before they enter the clinic. This is assault. But it isn’t more legally permissible for clinic protestors than for others with other literature, is it? ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/465 "2011-05-10T20:35:08Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > [hijack]I hereby award **SSgtBaloo** one small internet, plus a pot of honey, for correctly using the phrase “run the gantlet”. I’ve gotten so tired of hearing about jogging gloves! > [/hijack] I approve this award. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/466 "2011-05-10T20:46:56Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I have seen protestors grab people’s arms and forced literature into their hands before they enter the clinic. This is assault. I agree. I don’t agree, however, that this tactic is legal, no matter if it’s done by abortion protesters or by Lyndon LaRouche volunteers. > [@](#): > > I have seen protestors surrounf cars so tight that the doors cannot be opened and the people can’t get out. This is legal kidnapping. This tactic is not legal, whether it’s done by abortion protesters or Justin Beiber fans. And irrelevant to this discussion, but interesting nonetheless, this is not “legal kidnapping.” At common law, the elements of kidnapping are: (1) the taking away of another; (2) by fraud or force; (3) without the consent of the person taken; and (4) without lawful reason. Surrounding a car and not permitting the passengers to leave would not be kidnapping, because it lacks the element of “taking away.” It would, however, be an example of “false imprisonment,” which is a lesser-included offense of kidnapping, and simply requires that the accused detains the victim without lawful authority. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/467 "2011-05-10T20:56:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I get your point… but the link you gave to support it is ironic, in that it briefly mentions Nancy Klein’s case and then goes on to wax rhapsodical praise in the case of Barbara Blodgett, who was _also_ in a coma, was not given an abortion, and not only survived but is evidently thrilled with her child: “Four weeks after leaving Seattle’s University Hospital, she is able to move her left hand, nod her head and spell out answers to questions by pointing to letters written on a manila folder. Understandable speech is still impossible, but she can mouth a few words. When a visitor asks what she thinks of her new baby, she mouths silently, “I feel wonderful.”” Were you at all curious about who was doing the lip-reading/interpreting referred to by People magazine? (even if one accepts that the phrase was accurately recorded, it does not appear to be a direct answer to the question). As to **Bricker** ’s earlier contention that the “Helpers Of God’s Precious Infants” cited in the OP were filming the clinic to protect themselves from accusations of improper conduct: wouldn’t it then make a lot more sense, instead of doing the filming sitting in a car across the street, to give the proselytizers a videocamera so interactions with patients and staff could be recorded accurately close up? (according to local law it appears there’d be a problem with audio recording, but we could get images of what the various parties “mouth” at each other, including any threats). Of course they might reason that for patients, having someone point a camera at you from inches away could easily be construed as intimidation/harassment, whereas doing it within plain sight but from across the street is, well, the same thing but less obvious. So forgive us if we are not credulous enough to think that the poor, put upon Helpers of God’s Precious Infants are just out to protect themselves and aren’t following classic anti-abortion protester strategy at clinics - haranguing and harassing women into not getting abortions, going right up to and sometimes over legal boundaries to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/468 "2011-05-10T21:08:28Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > [T]he debate is exactly the question you’re begging: > > 1. if fetuses are non-persons, there is no debate–abortion is solely a question of the fundamental rights of the mother. > 2. if fetuses ARE persons, there is a debate on the interrelation of the fundamental rights of the mother and the fetus, and what either is allowed or prohibited from doing to the other. > > I don’t think the position of “fetuses are legal persons with full rights” is indefensible […] Reasonable people can reasonably hold that position–and derive an anti-abortion position from it that holds water. QFT. If we all could stop yelling past each other for the moment, it’s important to recognize the assumptions that underlie each other’s meta-arguments. Unless those assumptions – the “when” of fetal personhood – are addressed, further argument is not fruitful because, in essence, you’re not even speaking the same language. Also, +1 for correct use of the phrase “begging the question”. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/469 "2011-05-10T22:19:11Z")
> [@Lorski](#): > > “classy” lady my ass. Pretty much if you have to call yourself classy, you generally ain’t, and you just keep on proving it. :rolleyes: You’re about as classy as a piece of shit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/470 "2011-05-10T22:25:18Z")
Oh and to dropzone don’t you dare send me another DM about the partial birth abortion your brother and SIL had. If you can’t differentiate between fantasy and reality it isn’t my problem. I am not responsible for your family and their crazy problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/471 "2011-05-10T22:44:32Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Were you at all curious about who was doing the lip-reading/interpreting referred to by People magazine? (even if one accepts that the phrase was accurately recorded, it does not appear to be a direct answer to the question). No, because the sentiment was reported by many [other sources](http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/12/us/in-northwest-a-woman-s-coma-ended-after-she-gave-birth.html?src=pm). For example: > [@New York Times](#): > > She sat in a wheelchair the other day, gazed at Simon Alan Blodgett, after whose birth she started to improve, and nodded emphatically when she was asked if she hoped for a full recovery. She pointed to letters on a piece of paper to spell out words. > > ‘‘I felt wonderful,’’ the 24-year-old Mrs. Blodgett spelled out, when asked how she felt when she saw the baby. She watched her husband, David, feed the baby from a bottle. Then she kissed the baby. In this version, we don’t need to rely on a lip-reader; she spelled out the words by pointing at letters. Because the the account of the lip reader is consistent with this account, I believe both. Do you have some reason to doubt the issue? > [@](#): > > As to **Bricker** ’s earlier contention that the “Helpers Of God’s Precious Infants” cited in the OP were filming the clinic to protect themselves from accusations of improper conduct: wouldn’t it then make a lot more sense, instead of doing the filming sitting in a car across the street, to give the proselytizers a videocamera so interactions with patients and staff could be recorded accurately close up? (according to local law it appears there’d be a problem with audio recording, but we could get images of what the various parties “mouth” at each other, including any threats). Since sound would not be permitted, I don’t see much additional value in the close-up video, and I see a much greater intimidation factor. > [@](#): > > Of course they might reason that for patients, having someone point a camera at you from inches away could easily be construed as intimidation/harassment, whereas doing it within plain sight but from across the street is, well, the same thing but less obvious. Agreed. But if the actual purpose is to insulate them from false accusations, the across-the-street method is the best balance between in-your-face intimidation and sufficient clarity of image to make clear if any assaults took place. > [@](#): > > So forgive us if we are not credulous enough to think that the poor, put upon Helpers of God’s Precious Infants are just out to protect themselves and aren’t following classic anti-abortion protester strategy at clinics - haranguing and harassing women into not getting abortions, going right up to and sometimes over legal boundaries to do so. Who is “we?” Do you have intestinal parasites that share your skepticism of this claim? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/472 "2011-05-10T22:55:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh… no, you’re not. > > Oh… yes, you do. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/473 "2011-05-10T22:59:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No there isn’t. A fetus is a _thing_, and subordinating a woman’s needs or desires to a _thing_ is oppression, period. The only reason the “debate” exists is the attempt to harass and oppress women. **That’s why no one is arguing for the rights of tumors even though they are just as alive as any fetus.** This is just as morally one sided as the fight against segregation was. You’ve got major problems. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/474 "2011-05-10T23:19:59Z")
Why? For pointing out that is attached to a woman’s body, wholly dependent on her for blood, oxygen, nutrients, etc. and is composed of human DNA? (Bonus points if you can tell whether is a fetus, a tumor, both, or neither.) ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/475 "2011-05-10T23:26:41Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Why? For pointing out that is attached to a woman’s body, wholly dependent on her for blood, oxygen, nutrients, etc. and is composed of human DNA? > > (Bonus points if you can tell whether is a fetus, a tumor, both, or neither.) Gee I don’t know do tumors have xx or xy chromsomes? i think it’s pretty damn easy to tell the difference. Tumors don’t have heartbeats either. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/476 "2011-05-10T23:32:08Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Gee I don’t know do tumors have xx or xy chromsomes? i think it’s pretty damn easy to tell the difference. Tumors don’t have heartbeats either. Only a moron would base humanity on heartbeats. Not that I’m suggesting you don’t. 😃 In any case, brain dead people can have heartbeats. It’s brain function that defines humanity, and a fetus is effectively brain dead. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/477 "2011-05-10T23:32:38Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Gee I don’t know do tumors have xx or xy chromsomes? Well, yes, actually. XX, anyway. I’d be surprised to see a tumor (or any tissue, really) with an XY in a woman’s body normally, unless it happened to be a male fetus. Anyway, your views are stupid and you’re either a troll or a very good simulation of one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/478 "2011-05-10T23:34:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It’s brain function that defines humanity… Because you say so? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/479 "2011-05-10T23:39:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Because you say so? I’ll take my assessment over yours that is derived from your imaginary friend. Kay? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/480 "2011-05-10T23:51:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In this version (of the brain-damaged woman supposedly being delighted about having had the baby), we don’t need to rely on a lip-reader; she spelled out the words by pointing at letters. Because the the account of the lip reader is consistent with this account, I believe both. So now we have _two_ versions of what the woman supposedly did - either mouth the words (to whom?) or spelled them out (according to a sketchy AP account reproduced on the Times web page). And that doesn’t raise questions in your mind - the fact that there are multiple versions of the story is a point in its favor? When you were a public defender, did you feel that when a prosecution witness gave multiple, differing accounts of an event, that strengthened his credibility? :dubious: > [@Bricker](#): > > Do you have some reason to doubt the issue? Yes, the anti-abortion movement has given us considerable reason to doubt claims about brain-damaged people. Allow me to refresh your memory -think back on the Terry Schiavo case, which “pro-lifers” glommed onto, and the claims made by numerous people (including Senator Bill Frist, the Superman of long-distance video diagnosis) about how she was allegedly communicating with others, proving she was not in a persistent vegetative state. Then at autopsy it was demonstrated that the great majority of her brain was mush, leaving her incapable of responding the way those witnesses and long-distance analysts claimed. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > As to Bricker’s earlier contention that the “Helpers Of God’s Precious Infants” cited in the OP were filming the clinic to protect themselves from accusations of improper conduct: wouldn’t it then make a lot more sense, instead of doing the filming sitting in a car across the street, to give the proselytizers a videocamera so interactions with patients and staff could be recorded accurately close up? (according to local law it appears there’d be a problem with audio recording, but we could get images of what the various parties “mouth” at each other, including any threats). > [@Bricker](#): > > Since sound would not be permitted, I don’t see much additional value in the close-up video, and I see a much greater intimidation factor. Thanks for conceding my point - filming patients going into the clinic from across the street _is_ intimidation, just not as flagrant as doing it close-up. So even you now admit there’s more going on here than just the Precious Infants brigade protecting themselves from claims of misbehavior. > [@](#): > > Who is “we?” Do you have intestinal parasites that share your skepticism of this claim? Nice. But even someone with your limited reading comprehension skills can detect other posters in this thread who share my skepticism about the motives of this batch of anti-abortion protesters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=25)