# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/821 "2011-05-12T17:53:14Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Yes, you are discussing non-existent people. Science clearly does not support your contention that embryos are people. You have to concede this point or concede that you want to take away women’s rights based on a supernatural belief. Science does not refute the point either, since science does not and cannot purport to define what a person is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/822 "2011-05-12T17:59:29Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > **Bricker** , can you look at my post 749 and answer the questions: I’m genuinely curious about the implications of your stated views in non-pregnancy contexts. Sure: > [@Zeriel](#): > > Would you agree that there is a difference in kind between “requiring someone to use their body to manipulate external objects” and “requiring someone to actively give up the substance of their body”? We occasionally require people to perform labor (community service and the like), we do not compel them to donate blood. Pregnancy’s affect on the body is the latter, not the former. Yes, I agree that’s a difference in both degree and kind. Of course we do occasionally require someone to “donate” blood – to a blood alcohol test, for example, following an accusation of drunk driving, or for a paternity test prior to the advent of buccal swabs. > [@](#): > > Does your balance of equities extend to non-pregnancy-related incidents regarding the invasion of bodily substance of others? If I am the only person who is a bone marrow match for a person with cancer, would a just society obligate me to give up my bodily substance (much less than nine months of inconvenience) to give that person continued life? No, a just society would not, because that society would recognize that you have no particular duty to care for that person. (Of course, I think society would regard you as admirable and noble if you did choose to donate your marrow). ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/823 "2011-05-12T18:00:27Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Ironically, you CAN sell your uterus, or at least the use of it. It’s called surrogacy, and lots of people do it. –Golf clap–So very true. Want to know what happens when the government decides one day to get in the middle of that?? Go read The Handmaid’s Tale, by Margaret Atwood. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/824 "2011-05-12T18:08:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, a just society would not, because that society would recognize that you have no particular duty to care for that person. (Of course, I think society would regard you as admirable and noble if you did choose to donate your marrow). So a just society wouldn’t consider you duty-bound to a person you haven’t explicitly consented to care for? Just checking. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/825 "2011-05-12T18:26:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. And when protesters are arrested, it’s because their conduct breaks the law. You were the one that said that the video showed illegal conduct. But it’s manifestly clear that this is not so. It’s not clear to me. Whether someone is arrested or not it’s not the definitive standard for whether their actions are against the law, especially things as subjective as disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct. This detail is minor and not a fruitful line of discussion. We just disagree on this. > [@](#): > > No. “Verbally accost” is not against the law, much as you apparently wish it were otherwise. There’s also the detail of harassment. A contiguous barrage of verbally accosting a clinic customers seems to qualify, but again, it’s not a hair worth splitting. > [@](#): > > I agree. Blocking the sidewalk, keeping people in their cars, and laying hands on them are absolutely examples of criminal action, and absolutely should result in arrest. I’m glad we agree on this. > [@](#): > > None of those actions appear on the video taken, as the video itself claims, at the “worst location in the country” for clinic protests. and we saw seconds on a rainy day. We’ve had several people here giving more severe accounts. > [@](#): > > Just as clinic property would provide a barrier for clinic users. It would depend on where the clinic is located. At the one near my home I think the walkway and parking lot is private property so the protestors can only be in the street in front of the clinic. Clearly the one in the video is not like that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/826 "2011-05-12T18:31:25Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > So a just society wouldn’t consider you duty-bound to a person you haven’t explicitly consented to care for? > > Just checking. That’s not exactly the standard. A duty of care can be imputed to a person even without that person explicitly consenting to it. For example, you have no duty to rescue a drowning victim; you may walk right by the pool. But if you begin the rescue, you assume the duty towards the person, without explicitly doing anything. You owe a certain duty to visitors to your home, even if you didn’t invite them; a Jehovah’s Witness may sue you if you left a sharp rake hidden by leaves in the path to your door, even though you didn’t explicitly consent to his visit – and didn’t even want it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/827 "2011-05-12T18:32:51Z")
Careful honey… you can pull something, stretching like that. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/828 "2011-05-12T18:42:25Z")
**Classyladyhp.** Most third trimester terminations are for serious foetal abnormality- often only diagnosed on a 20week ultrasound. Many are not surgical (D&E, PBA). Did you know that? They involve inducing labour early, using the same drugs that are used on full-term women. Sometimes a drug is administered first to ensure the foetus isn’t delivered alive, sometimes not, but there is an understanding that no heroic measures will be undertaken, and most end in stillbirth. These parents [mourn for loved babies](http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Articles/GriefAfter.aspx), [they cuddle them, dress them, sing to them](http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/Articles/ChoicesBefore.aspx) in the short while they have together after the delivery. They have decided that their baby doesn’t deserve the pain and suffering that a futile fight for life with intensive medical intervention would entail. So yes, I can support that. > **[A Heartbreaking Choice](http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/)** > > A Heartbreaking Choice - for parents who have interrupted a wanted pregnancy after poor prenatal diagnosis. [http://www.arc-uk.org/](http://www.arc-uk.org/) ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/829 "2011-05-12T18:42:52Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Aside from Bryan…(since I’m not sure what he is.)…any other people out there ok with abortion after viability. I am - I don’t believe that you can be pro-choice and then turn around and have a cut off date. > [@DianaG](#): > > Ironically, you CAN sell your uterus, or at least the use of it. It’s called surrogacy, and lots of people do it. Actually, that’s renting your uterus… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/830 "2011-05-12T18:48:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I don’t say it’s because it has potential; I say that it’s a full-fledged human being. > > Why? Because, as I said before, any other answer leads to an absurdity. When do you contend that the fetus is a human being? At birth? At the second trimester? Whatever you answer, I’ll want to know why it’s isn’t a human one day before that point. Once again your point is your subjective opinion. It’s just as easy to say that considering a zygote , or embryo, a human being is absurd, and in that case, there’s real evidence to support the statement. You have very little , perhaps none. It’s also reasonable to say, it’s a human person the day it is born alive and independent of it’s mother. The day before that it’s a human fetus, at a certain stage of development, and the medical decisions should be up to the doctor and the woman. I assume that medical issues concerning the mother and fetus you would leave up to the doctor and mother? You’d allow them to gauge the threat to the mother’s health , and the health of the fetus, and decide things like C section, when, etc. Or do you think there needs to be some kind of pro life panel to approve those decisions. And, I’m curious, believing “fully human from conception” do you think mothers and doctors who choose abortion should be tried for murder? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/831 "2011-05-12T18:53:13Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Beautifully said. and still just an opinion contrary to medical evidence and human tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/832 "2011-05-12T19:05:59Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > and still just an opinion contrary to medical evidence and human tradition. But presented with more intelligence than **classyladyhp** has shown in the sum total of her posts to date. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/833 "2011-05-12T19:06:52Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Does anyone know up to which point of gestation abortion is allowed? There have been babies who have been born at 22-23 weeks and survived. Would the pro-choicers be ok about abortion at 23 weeks? It isn’t as simple as a time frame. Why is an abortion even being sought. Let’s say a woman is deserted by the father and finds herself is desperate financial straits at week 24, and being emotionally distraught, she considers abortion. If some group like the one Bricker mentioned wants to step up and pay her medical bills and take care of her and the fetus I think giving the fetus an opportunity is a better option. I think just making it illegal, and then leaving the woman to deal on her own, is a shoddy choice. That’s not counting health issues, birth defects, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/834 "2011-05-12T19:07:05Z")
I dunno what you guys want from Bricker - he’s admitted his views are axiomatic. Trying to tease out some admission just encourages him to dig in his heels, as I’m sure would be the case for any of us who hold beliefs we can’t prove. Deciding when (or if) to label a fetus surely counts as one of these. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/835 "2011-05-12T19:07:54Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But presented with more intelligence than **classyladyhp** has shown in the sum total of her posts to date. I agree it’s intelligent and well articulated. The kind of communication that helps rather than hinders. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/836 "2011-05-12T19:10:21Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > With all the back and forth on how verbally intrusive pro-life protesters are to women as they are walking to the clinics, I wonder if any of the people who act as escorts have ever considered buying noise-cancelling headphones for the women they are escorting. Never having used them, I’m not sure how effective they are at blocking out conversation, but I would think they would be of some help. Interesting. How about just a set of head phones with a wide selection of music to pick from? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/837 "2011-05-12T19:17:06Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But presented with more intelligence than **classyladyhp** has shown in the sum total of her posts to date. Do you see what I mean. Again with the name calling:rolleyes: Unbelievable. Again I don’t give a care what people like you think of me. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/838 "2011-05-12T19:18:39Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I agree it’s intelligent and well articulated. The kind of communication that helps rather than hinders. I agree that his posts are intelligent. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/839 "2011-05-12T19:20:30Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > [http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162](http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162) > Here’s a very interesting article that I think everyone will enjoy. Interesting article. I skimmed, but bookmarked for a later read. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/840 "2011-05-12T19:20:42Z")
So lets see can we get back on topic? I think the thread is about pro-life demonstrators. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=43)