# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/861 "2011-05-12T20:07:36Z")
[quote=“classyladyhp, post:853, topic:580935”] > [@cosmosdan](#): > > 😕 I didn’t put anyone down. I commented on Bricker’s posts only and purposely did not comment about you at all. > > QUOTE] > > I apologize. Accepted. I see you changed the post. Had I been a little slower I wouldn’t have even seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/862 "2011-05-12T20:08:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Of course, once they’re _in_ your home, you’re free to hunt them for sport. > It’s in the Constitution, somewhere in the back. Right. I think it’s just after the classified ads. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/863 "2011-05-12T20:30:32Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > So T minus one day it’s ok with you to terminate? Lets see: > [@Little\_Bird](#): > > I’m fine with it. The woman’s right to not be pregnant trumps the fetus’s rights to live. Yeah. What I said before. It’s her body and if she needs that fetus out with the minimum amount of wear and tear on her body, it’s her choice. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/864 "2011-05-12T20:34:02Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > If the anti-abortionists want to have a rally, or spread their message through media channels, I too will defend their rights to say whatever they damnwell like. > > But standing outside a clinic harrassing and **filming** individual women/couples who are there to have a legal medical procedure? > > Nope. I don’t _like_ it either, but what do you want to do about it? You want to bar them from accosting people on public streets? From taking pictures in public places? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/865 "2011-05-12T21:05:10Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Again, I think we’re on the same page except for how to address the problem. > > The point of getting people to state where they get their axioms will help pro-choice people to figure out how to combat the views. Not for the people already entrenched (they’re hopeless, IMO). More to prevent society from its continued trend. I’m interested in the source. Again, I think it’s due to widespread religious propaganda but I’m not sure. I also suspect that the religious views come from a need to control women’s reproduction to control women’s place in society but I’m not sure about that either. I don’t have too much doubt that religious propaganda is a big part of it. There’s a lot of false information that is passed around. The video that was linked to for example. The lady says to the client being escorted, “At conception it was decided whether you’d have a daughter or a son.” That religious nonsense. You’re right , we disagree on the best strategy for addressing the issue. > [@](#): > > Also, I may be an intellectual asshole, but whether or not I’m an asshole has nothing to do with what I just said about people’s intelligence and ability to process facts. Some people can’t do it. I’m stating a fact, not making a judgment whether its good or bad. I wasn’t trying to imply that. My point is that it’s important to understand the strong emotional element of how people form belief systems and opinions, and take it into consideration. It’s possible to point out top people the difference between feelings and facts, and to do so in a non combative way. I’d describe my strategy as one that recognizes the emotional facet of people’s belief systems and uses patience and persistence with facts to gradually shift things. > [@](#): > > Therefore, presenting a chain of logic won’t work with everyone. Hell, even very intelligent suffer cognitive dissonance when they feel strongly about something (that includes scientists). Long-term memory and learning relies heavily on emotions. So, of course facts must be presented but we have to realize that facts are typically not good enough. If course a chain of logic won’t work with everyone. You’re agreeing with me, and the intelligence factor as well. Then what good does it do to ask them whether thier beliefs are based in religion? None that I can tell. We’ve had a long reasonable discussion in this thread without any discussion of religion. I think when and if it’s relevant, a person’s religious beliefs will come up or reveal itself in their language. > [@](#): > > One more thing about facts. As you know, many highly religious people do not differentiate between facts and beliefs. I heard a pastor this Christmas make outrageous claims about Jews, then the census during Harod, and something about Roman culture (can’t remember) and called them ‘facts’. I think you’ve been agreeing with me that calling a baby and embryo is a ‘fact’. I’m aware that facts won’t be effective on religious zealots. IMO, neither will “religion is bad or foolish” I think we’ve already made progress in pressing science and reason when religious folks strive to frame arguments in non religious terms. > [@](#): > > Because presenting facts alone has limited success, I’m suggesting a widespread campaign for science and reason in general with regard to a lot of topics including the anti-choice movement. A widespread program for science and reason is presenting the facts. One precept at a time , little by little through passing generations, facts become common knowledge and there is a shift in belief systems. I get the impression that you want to do something broader to minimize the effect of religion on society. I agree religious beliefs need to be challenged. I just think it happens naturally as verifiable facts are stressed and presented consistently. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/866 "2011-05-12T21:09:45Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I don’t _like_ it either, but what do you want to do about it? You want to bar them from accosting people on public streets? From taking pictures in public places? Counter demonstrations? When they gather start passing out pamphlets to them about science and biology and tell them “We just want to save you from superstition” Find out what church they’re from and do it there on during Sunday services as well. Lobby to have guidelines about how close they can be to the entrance to the clinic, and stop them from continuous verbal harassment. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/867 "2011-05-12T21:16:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Counter demonstrations? When they gather start passing out pamphlets to them about science and biology and tell them “We just want to save you from superstition” > > Find out what church they’re from and do it there on during Sunday services as well. Lobby to have guidelines about how close they can be to the entrance to the clinic, and stop them from continuous verbal harassment. Why is it that the kinds of people who inspired the OP (remember it? from way back?) have all the free time in the world to pull their brand of crap, but those of us who actually value logic, science, rational thought, etc. have, y’know, jobs and shit to do? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/868 "2011-05-12T21:26:29Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > And I’m confident enough in the variability of human nature to be able to find patient/doctor combos that get around that ethical checkpoint. The world often turns out differently than I would like (expect). I expect that. That’s why I’d prefer the law give guidance and extra vigilance in late term abortion decisions. Heck, if it gets to that point, she may as well deliver the baby and immediately murder it (or abandon it to die of exposure). I’m confident the hypothetical you’re describing would be so rare that I need not allow it to sway me emotionally. Heck, what you’re describing is technically perfectly legal in Canada, but I’m not aware of any outbreak of elective T-1 abortions, so unless you want to argue that Canadians aren’t humanly variable… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/869 "2011-05-12T21:27:47Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Why is it that the kinds of people who inspired the OP (remember it? from way back?) have all the free time in the world to pull their brand of crap, but those of us who actually value logic, science, rational thought, etc. have, y’know, jobs and shit to do? Jon Stewart captured that at the Rally to restore Sanity. I think reasonable people need to find some time to at least make themselves heard. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/870 "2011-05-12T21:34:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Counter demonstrations? When they gather start passing out pamphlets to them about science and biology and tell them “We just want to save you from superstition” > > Find out what church they’re from and do it there on during Sunday services as well. Lobby to have guidelines about how close they can be to the entrance to the clinic, and stop them from continuous verbal harassment. Ha! I thought of the same thing. Can you imagine a bunch of scientists crowding outside of a church holding up fossils and DNA sequences? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/871 "2011-05-12T21:39:18Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Why is it that the kinds of people who inspired the OP (remember it? from way back?) have all the free time in the world to pull their brand of crap, but those of us who actually value logic, science, rational thought, etc. have, y’know, jobs and shit to do? Oh yeah. I suppose I could try to get my retired parents to stand outside churches. Sadly, they’d think that was crazy and intrusive. It is fun to imagine though. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/872 "2011-05-12T22:02:30Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Ha! I thought of the same thing. Can you imagine a bunch of scientists crowding outside of a church holding up fossils and DNA sequences? 😃 It was worth keeping up with eighteen pages of shit, just for that mental image. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/873 "2011-05-12T22:06:33Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > Ha! I thought of the same thing. Can you imagine a bunch of scientists crowding outside of a church holding up fossils and DNA sequences? 😃 I’ve had a little experience with teaching by example and found it helpful and satisfying if done intelligently and with minimum spite. I’d do it to those who participate in inappropriate protests outside a clinic. They might see how mean spirited and intrusive it feels. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/874 "2011-05-12T22:25:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Counter demonstrations? When they gather start passing out pamphlets to them about science and biology and tell them “We just want to save you from superstition” > > Find out what church they’re from and do it there on during Sunday services as well. Lobby to have guidelines about how close they can be to the entrance to the clinic, and stop them from continuous verbal harassment. I’m all for counter-demonstrations. Have at it. There _are_ guidelines, laws in fact, on how close they can be to the clinic, and what tactics are permissible. Those of you who never saw a clinic demo before [1994](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Access_to_Clinic_Entrances_Act) might not realize how things _used_ to be worse. Notice that FACE protects religious facilities as well as clinics. Make sure your retaliatory exercise itself doesn’t cross the line. “Verbal harassment” on public streets–provided it does not include threats or comprise a pattern of personal stalking–is also known as _free speech_. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/875 "2011-05-12T22:38:03Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > “Verbal harassment” on public streets–provided it does not include threats or comprise a pattern of personal stalking–is also known as _free speech_. I figured. My point would be that staking out clinic and verbally harassing all their clients is a pattern which should result in a disturbing the peace charge and an overnight stay in the klink. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/876 "2011-05-12T22:49:27Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > And this I find to be inconsistent in the logic and incredibly frequent in people who hold your position. We have serious laws about where the lines are drawn for homicide, and “the best possible option” is not a viable defense after you’ve killed someone. Sure it is. Diminished capacity. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/877 "2011-05-12T22:57:07Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Of course there can be evidence about things people don’t agree on. Notice the subtle change between what you said in the line I quoted, and what I said that you replied to: > [@Bricker](#): > > How can there be evidence to support **a definition** on which we do not agree? (bolding added) See the difference? > [@](#): > > If I talk to a believer about evolution or the nature of the Bible , isn’t there evidence? Sure, because in that case, what’s at issue is a set of facts. In this case, it’s simply the definition of “human being.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/878 "2011-05-12T23:08:28Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > The specific instance mentioned is silly. Of course the JW could file suit. I could file suit against you right now, for hurting my feelings. Bored, silly people file lawsuits as a hobby, ferchrissake. That doesn’t mean that anything would come of it. In the JW case I described, though, not only could the JW file suit, but he would be very likely to recover damages, because the law imposes a duty of care on the homeowner towards a visitor, even one that’s not wanted. In fact, the homeowner even has a duty of care - slight, but present - towards a trespasser! So why did you you say, “That doesn’t mean that anything would come of it?” Were you unaware of the law as regards the duty of care towards a visitor? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/879 "2011-05-12T23:22:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure it is. Diminished capacity. that’s an unrealistic stretch. It remains a logical inconsistency IMO. A sign that says what you claim to believe you don’t really support completely. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/880 "2011-05-12T23:25:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Notice the subtle change between what you said in the line I quoted, and what I said that you replied to: > > (bolding added) > > See the difference? > > Sure, because in that case, what’s at issue is a set of facts. > > In this case, it’s simply the definition of “human being.” Sure I do. My point remains. There is a set of facts that supports one position , and a notable lack of supporting facts on the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=43) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=45)