# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/961 "2011-05-13T16:54:06Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > How do you arrive at your consensus? **villa** said that while on first blush he favored it, a bit of deeper thought produced opposition. The only active pro-lifers in the thread are me and **classy** , so uninamity is less of a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/962 "2011-05-13T16:57:05Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > So how come people like you don’t stand around picketing at fertility clinics? Why no harassment for those clients? Both embryos are _potential_ human beings, with human DNA, and the _potential_ to grow up into a wonderful person who will love and get married and fart rainbows and etc. How come it’s “nothing to do with what we are debating here” when it’s OK to chuck one embryo into a trash can but not the other embryo? Again I don’t presume to speak for **classylady** , but I offered several reasons above. The most obvious one is the relative numbers involved. Like any advertising executive must do, the pro-life movement has to make decisions based on how effectively it uses its resources. There are vastly more abortions in the country than there are _in vitro_ fertilizations. Simple math suggests that even if the distaste for both procedures is equal, the better target is the abortion clinic. ---
**Author:** ![Aeris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Aeris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeris)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/963 "2011-05-13T16:59:26Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > I’ve protested the PP here on Liberty Avenue once or twice, and I’ve always found it to have been a rather peaceful endeavor, on both sides. But Pittsburghers tend to be a pretty sanguine lot all around, when it’s not playoff season. > > At worst, I was grimaced-at by what appeared to be one of the aforementioned gentleman averse to the prospect of child support, who was hurrying his visibly-disconcerted “friend” into the building. Ahhh so you were one I wanted to punch in the face for making me feel so embarrassed to go get cheap healthcare in college. Thank you for \*that \*experience. PP was one of the few places I felt like I could go to talk about my body and you took that away from me. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/964 "2011-05-13T17:02:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would suggest as rebuttal that the woman and man are conspiring to kill said kiddie-pops when they get the harvesting done. Wouldn’t you consider them equally at fault as a woman who goes into an abortion clinic? Not at all. Again, the question is one of intent. A woman’s journey to the abortion clinic has a clear intent. The woman and man involved in the harvesting of eggs for _in vitro_ fertilization have the intent of implanting embryos to get pregnant. The fact that the process may possibly end with extra embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process. > [@](#): > > The real reason it doesn’t rile you as much is you aren’t stupid. I love you too. > [@](#): > > You’re delusional, but not dumb enough to get pissed about fertility doctors. If a baby is ensouled and conception then it’s the same thing. I don’t understand this argument. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/965 "2011-05-13T17:03:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again I don’t presume to speak for **classylady** , but I offered several reasons above. The most obvious one is the relative numbers involved. Like any advertising executive must do, the pro-life movement has to make decisions based on how effectively it uses its resources. There are vastly more abortions in the country than there are _in vitro_ fertilizations. Simple math suggests that even if the distaste for both procedures is equal, the better target is the abortion clinic. How come one is constantly the focused target of right-wing legislation (not to mention the picketers in the OP) and one is not? If they’re equal, then the law should be equal, and efforts to ban them should be equal. The fact that efforts to outlaw the two are NOT equal suggests to me that your\* position is irrational, illogical, and unsupportive. - The general “you” i.e. anti-choice movement in general, not the specific “you” i.e. the Doper who knows some law stuff. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/966 "2011-05-13T17:04:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > **villa** said that while on first blush he favored it, a bit of deeper thought produced opposition. Opposition which I said I could overcome, and would support the hypothetical device. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/967 "2011-05-13T17:06:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > So how come people like you don’t stand around picketing at fertility clinics? Why no harassment for those clients? Both embryos are _potential_ human beings, with human DNA, and the _potential_ to grow up into a wonderful person who will love and get married and fart rainbows and etc. How come it’s “nothing to do with what we are debating here” when it’s OK to chuck one embryo into a trash can but not the other embryo? > > One is a human life with a soul, the other is a collection of disposable cells. WTF? > > Since **classy** stated her opinion on embryo discarding already, this post is primarily directed at other pro-lifers/anti-choicers. **Classy** , you are, of course, free as always to respond anyway. Go for it! People like me? I have never protested at an abortion clinic so i would never protest at a fertility clinic. Both are wrong in my opinion but this debate is about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/968 "2011-05-13T17:07:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. Again, the question is one of intent. A woman’s journey to the abortion clinic has a clear intent. The woman and man involved in the harvesting of eggs for _in vitro_ fertilization have the intent of implanting embryos to get pregnant. The fact that the process may possibly end with extra embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process… Wait, I just saw this. Oh, hell, fast as this thread is moving, this won’t be a dbl-post anyway … The question is one of intent. A woman’s journey to the abortion clinic has a clear intent: _to no longer be pregnant_, something you’re simply incapable of understanding since you can never be such. The fact that the process may possibly end with [del]extra[/del] deceased embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/969 "2011-05-13T17:09:10Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > and because much of the other services provided are supported by the movement > > So are you finally admitting that pro-lifers don’t support basic gynecological care and birth control? Because that’s the majority of what PP does, but there they are. This is an example of the logical _converse_ of a statement being asserted as equivalent to the original statement. I said that the pro-life people FAVOR the other services of the fertility clinics. You suggest I’m saying that pro-life people DISFAVOR the other services of Planned Parenthood. If A, then B. is not the same as: If not A, then not B. > [@](#): > > You are the farthest thing in the world from honest. Let me ask the question another way, then: if this debate were being scored by ordinary debate rules, which of us do you think would be doing better? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/970 "2011-05-13T17:10:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all. Again, the question is one of intent. A woman’s journey to the abortion clinic has a clear intent. The intent of the woman isn’t to kill a baby. The intent is to be able to live the life that not having a child will provide. Killing the fetus is incidental. > [@](#): > > The woman and man involved in the harvesting of eggs for _in vitro_ fertilization have the intent of implanting embryos to get pregnant. The fact that the process may possibly end with extra embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process. So if I want to adopt a child, and the only way I can do it is to kill a half dozen other children, that’s okay to you? > [@](#): > > I love you too. Not in front of the other liberals! > [@](#): > > I don’t understand this argument. I was saying that your position is presumably based on your faith. And if your faith is correct, that is sperm+egg=soul, then fertility clinics are as guilty as abortion facilities. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/971 "2011-05-13T17:10:50Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Wait, I just saw this. Oh, hell, fast as this thread is moving, this won’t be a dbl-post anyway … > > The question is one of intent. A woman’s journey to the abortion clinic has a clear intent: _to no longer be pregnant_, something you’re simply incapable of understanding since you can never be such. The fact that the process may possibly end with [del]extra[/del] deceased embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process… This is precisely why I brought up the hypothetical of the magic embryo removing and sustaining machine, to explore your claim that what the woman sought was simply _no longer being pregnant_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/972 "2011-05-13T17:13:29Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > How come one is constantly the focused target of right-wing legislation (not to mention the picketers in the OP) and one is not? If they’re equal, then the law should be equal, and efforts to ban them should be equal. The fact that efforts to outlaw the two are NOT equal suggests to me that your\* position is irrational, illogical, and unsupportive. > > - The general “you” i.e. anti-choice movement in general, not the specific “you” i.e. the Doper who knows some law stuff. 😉 Same reason: > [@Bricker](#): > > Like any advertising executive must do, the pro-life movement has to make decisions based on how effectively it uses its resources. There are vastly more abortions in the country than there are in vitro fertilizations. Simple math suggests that even if the distaste for both procedures is equal, the better target is the abortion clinic. Since effort has to be expended on lobbying and advertising support for changes in the law, the better use is for the law that will affect the most change. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/973 "2011-05-13T17:14:17Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > People like me? I have never protested at an abortion clinic so i would never protest at a fertility clinic. Both are wrong in my opinion but this debate is about abortion. What’s wrong? The offices that provide their respective services, or the picketers who harass the offices’ clients? This debate IS about abortion - or, specifically, the picketers who harass the women who may _or may not_ be seeking such a procedure. But, my original question stands: what’s the difference between an embryo that’s chucked willy-nilly into a trash can, and an embryo that might soon\* have state legislative backing superior to its own host? - If Rick Santorum, anti-choicers, et al. get their way. Which will, hopefully, be never. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/974 "2011-05-13T17:21:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The intent of the woman isn’t to kill a baby. The intent is to be able to live the life that not having a child will provide. Killing the fetus is incidental. Yes, that may be (although that’s why the magic embryo machine discussion may be of some help). Which is why, even if we were to make abortion illegal, I would not support prosecution for women who sought abortions… because I agree they have imperfect or even non-existent criminal intent. > [@](#): > > So if I want to adopt a child, and the only way I can do it is to kill a half dozen other children, that’s okay to you? No, I’d prefer you not do this. The difference is that in this scenario, all the children are already alive, and I can’t think of any reason that you’d need to kill all of them to save only one. But – if you were in the Amazon rainforest after a plane crash with four children, and you physcially couldn’t walk out with all of them, but could save one successfully, I’d certainly understand your Sophie’s Choice decision to at least save one child and leave the others to die. > [@](#): > > Not in front of the other liberals! The new love that dare not speak its name. > [@](#): > > I was saying that your position is presumably based on your faith. And if your faith is correct, that is sperm+egg=soul, then fertility clinics are as guilty as abortion facilities. No, they’re not, because the clinic doesn’t have the means to sustain and grow an embryo. They are stuck, like a person in a coma with no chance of recovery. The clinic takes an embryo that is sustained and growing, and kills it. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/975 "2011-05-13T17:27:25Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Bricker > > However, there’s no good way to delineate which patrons of fertility clinics are there to discard frozen embryos, and because much of the other services provided are supported by the movement > > And, of course, as we’ve seen in this thread, pro-life folks are _so_ discriminating when it comes to selecting only the proper targets of their picketing at women’s health centers. Wouldn’t want to harass someone who’s there for a pre-natal ultrasound, so they carefully pick and choose who they stalk and intimidate. Not. > > I’d like to highlight the bolded part -\*\* that the prolife movement does not support the non-abortion services that Planned Parenthood provides.\*\* > > \*\*Because in fact, a lot of so-called pro-lifers do oppose birth control of any kind for anyone. So it doesn’t really matter to them whether the filthy whores at PP are coming in for birth control or for abortion. Either situation is a good reason to protest. > > And a lot of conservatives (the majority of the prolife movement) oppose any social services, especially to those disgusting poor people. > \*\* > So overall, there’s no reason for pro-lifers to object to the horrendous behaviour of the picketers, because they are in general happy with the results: poor sluts are publicly hounded and harassed. What could possibly be wrong with that? BINGO! (especially the bolded part) ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/976 "2011-05-13T17:33:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that may be (although that’s why the magic embryo machine discussion may be of some help). > > Which is why, even if we were to make abortion illegal, I would not support prosecution for women who sought abortions… because I agree they have imperfect or even non-existent criminal intent… When that “magic embryo machine” exists, then it will be relevant to this discussion. 'Till then, however … Also, pls. explain to a non-lawyer: how does one make illegal without prosecuting people who ? Anyone else hearing “magic embryo machine” in the same mental voice as “flying spaghetti monster?” ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/977 "2011-05-13T17:34:55Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I said the _majority_ of pro-lifers, because the _majority_ of pro-lifers also tend to be conservative both fiscally and socially, and I understand exactly why they feel the way they do. They’re kinda dumb and insecure and don’t cope well in a world where people have the power to ignore them, so they have to yell and stamp their feet incessantly about shit that’s really none of their business. > > I’m sure there are pro-lifers who’d be good with this solution, but they are, in fact, a tiny minority. Congrats on your meeting of the mind with classy, though. I am a fiscally liberal, anti death-penalty, registered Democrat, pro-lifer who is now going to make some assumptions about you: (1) You were born near Cleveland, OH; (2) You never really loved your father; (3) Your favorite color is green; (4) You are right-handed; (5) You have never scored above 100 on an IQ test, but believe the tests themselves to be biased; (6) You wear a “B” cup size, have a 28" waist, and size 7 1/2 shoes; (7) You are a masterful ping-pong player; (8) You have never petted an iguana; (9) You enjoy making bigoted and unwarranted assumptions about people you have never met and prefer looking at the world through your own convenient stereotypes because it beats actually paying attention to what’s around you. (10) You own a ballpoint pen. How’d I do? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/978 "2011-05-13T17:37:15Z")
“Tend,” **Ben.** The word in the quote from **DianaG** was “tend.” As in, “tend to be.” Get over yourself. \*\* looks around for ballpoint pen - I think I own one? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/979 "2011-05-13T17:39:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is an example of the logical _converse_ of a statement being asserted as equivalent to the original statement. > > I said that the pro-life people FAVOR the other services of the fertility clinics. You suggest I’m saying that pro-life people DISFAVOR the other services of Planned Parenthood. > > If A, then B. > > is not the same as: > > If not A, then not B. I’m saying that if they do favor the other services, then that should be sufficient to keep them away from PP, if it’s sufficient to keep them away from fertility clinics. > [@](#): > > Let me ask the question another way, then: if this debate were being scored by ordinary debate rules, which of us do you think would be doing better? I suppose you would, if we’re judging on nitpicky bullshit, instead of actual true stuff. Of course, you are a lawyer. You want a cookie? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/980 "2011-05-13T17:40:54Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > I am a fiscally liberal, anti death-penalty, registered Democrat, pro-lifer who is now going to make some assumptions about you: > > (1) You were born near Cleveland, OH; > (2) You never really loved your father; > (3) Your favorite color is green; > (4) You are right-handed; > (5) You have never scored above 100 on an IQ test, but believe the tests themselves to be biased; > (6) You wear a “B” cup size, have a 28" waist, and size 7 1/2 shoes; > (7) You are a masterful ping-pong player; > (8) You have never petted an iguana; > (9) You enjoy making bigoted and unwarranted assumptions about people you have never met and prefer looking at the world through your own convenient stereotypes because it beats actually paying attention to what’s around you. > (10) You own a ballpoint pen. > > How’d I do? About as well as I’d expect a pro-lifer to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=50)