# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/981 "2011-05-13T17:43:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > “Tend,” **Ben.** The word in the quote from **DianaG** was “tend.” As in, “tend to be.” Get over yourself. > > \*\* looks around for ballpoint pen - I think I own one? \*\* Got it. Black people tend to be violent, Puerto Ricans tend to be lazy, Italians tend to be mobsters, Jews tend to be greedy, White people tend to be awkward dancers, Americans tend to be fat and ignorant. amidoinitrite? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/982 "2011-05-13T17:43:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What facts support the claim that “human being” should be defined your way? It’s not that it should be defined my way. Our understanding of biology and the development stages of a zygote until birth , along with the historic attitude of most societies, perhaps most significantly, our own. You’re trying hard to make the claim, that it’s your philosophical right to claim a zygote and an embryo is a human being rather than a potential human being. A clump of cells with no brain , heart, or nervous system, may be genetically human tissue, but not a full human being. The fact that societies in history have fairly consistently not held an embryo or fetus the same as a human being is also significant. Perhaps most significant is your own admission that you don’t want abortion to be prosecuted as murder. Are you fully consciously committed to the belief you profess or are you not? Is it the same crime for a woman to smother her 1 year old, as it is to choose abortion at 12 weeks? Is the medical staff accessories to murder or not? IMO, it’s back to the familiar position of, you choosing your own values on this issue, but not choosing it as an absolute for others. Which is the pro choice position. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/983 "2011-05-13T17:56:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why, specifically, and with reference to the legal standard of diminished capacity, is it unrealistic? Starting from the point that an embryo is a person, the same as an infant, it would be hard to argue that a woman didn’t realize her actions would lead to the child’s death considering what choosing an abortion entails. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/984 "2011-05-13T18:08:27Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Got it. Black people tend to be violent, Puerto Ricans tend to be lazy, Italians tend to be mobsters, Jews tend to be greedy, White people tend to be awkward dancers, Americans tend to be fat and ignorant. > > amidoinitrite? I’m lost. What the fuck are you going on about? Are you on something? (If so … please to share?) Yourenotdoininrite. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/985 "2011-05-13T18:08:34Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > :dubious: Which one of these questions you responded too would illuminate your quote? > > Does anyone know up to which point of gestation abortion is allowed? > Would the pro-choicers be ok about abortion at 23 weeks? It was the latter. IMO, it’s not as simple as setting a time frame. The fact is that a 23 week fetus is not a two year old. I could accept the reasoning behind such a law, but I was stressing that those who oppose abortion rights ought to be out there providing resources and realistic alternatives. A single mother can get help for her and her infant. Where does a single pregnant woman go to get her medical bills taken care of for the next few months? Where does she live if she can’t pay the rent? A support system can make a significant difference in what choice is made. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/986 "2011-05-13T18:12:03Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I’m lost. What the fuck are you going on about? Are you on something? (If so … please to share?) > > Yourenotdoininrite. You missed the news: you can make whatever ignorant, inane, or scurrilous assumptions about any group of people you want, as long as you simply say that such-and-such-group _ **tends** _ to possess a certain trait. It’s a liberating revelation. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/987 "2011-05-13T18:17:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s pretty much on the mark. If there existed technology to instantly, painlessly, and with no medcial side-effects remove and sustain even an embryo from a woman’s body at any point, I suspect the vast majority of pro-choice advocates would agree that this was an acceptable alternative. As I understand it, the viewpoint is primarily that the woman’s body is being used without her consent. If a pregnant woman could relieve herself of the pregnancy and give up the child for adoption without continuing to be pregnant and give birth, only a tiny minority would continue to demand that the pregnant woman still had the right to kill the child. How about the pro lifers volunteer to be surrogate mothers and raise money to pay for the procedure? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/988 "2011-05-13T18:21:47Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > You missed the news: you can make whatever ignorant, inane, or scurrilous assumptions about any group of people you want, as long as you simply say that such-and-such-group _ **tends** _ to possess a certain trait. > > It’s a liberating revelation. Referring to people as \*\* checks original quote from Diana\*\* “conservative both fiscally and socially” is now “ignorant, inane, or scurrilous” to you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/989 "2011-05-13T18:22:14Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > You missed the news: you can make whatever ignorant, inane, or scurrilous assumptions about any group of people you want, as long as you simply say that such-and-such-group _ **tends** _ to possess a certain trait. > > It’s a liberating revelation. Well it’s a foolish and false revelation too. There is a massive difference between saying that because a group of people has one belief they tend to have other related beliefs, and saying that because of group of people share a particular immutable characteristic they tend to share an unrelated chosen characteristic. If I find a white person is racist against black people, I find it perfectly plausible to say that it is likely they are racist against South Asians, for example. Which is a fundamentally different thing to the examples you gave. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/990 "2011-05-13T18:27:36Z")
Would the fiscal and/or social conservatives please stand up, please stand up, please stand up … ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/991 "2011-05-13T18:29:33Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > There’s a real baby- hating tone in this post. Not that I can see. It’s about telling the difference between embryos and babies, and the apparent inconsistencies in the “from conception” argument. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/992 "2011-05-13T18:32:42Z")
Well, from what I can tell, it’s now apparently the “from implantation” argument. . . ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/993 "2011-05-13T18:36:01Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Referring to people as \*\* checks original quote from Diana\*\* “conservative both fiscally and socially” is now “ignorant, inane, or scurrilous” to you? > > :dubious: No, it was more this bit: > [@](#): > > They’re kinda dumb and insecure and don’t cope well in a world where people have the power to ignore them, so they have to yell and stamp their feet incessantly about shit that’s really none of their business. > [@villa](#): > > Well it’s a foolish and false revelation too. There is a massive difference between saying that because a group of people has one belief they tend to have other related beliefs, and saying that because of group of people share a particular immutable characteristic they tend to share an unrelated chosen characteristic. > > If I find a white person is racist against black people, I find it perfectly plausible to say that it is likely they are racist against South Asians, for example. > > Which is a fundamentally different thing to the examples you gave. I agree. But there’s nothing about being pro-life that’s “related” to being fiscally conservative (socially conservative, maybe), nor related to any particular political party. Nor is it prudent to assume that, because you don’t agree with a particular tenet held by people, their reason for holding this tenet is subterfuge, or that they are “dumb” or “insecure”, or misogynistic, etc. Now, if you find someone who dislikes Black people for the sole fact of their being Black, it is reasonably to assume that _ **that particular person** _ may hold illogical views about “race” in general, which may likely influence his prima facie opinion of South Asians in general. What you cannot do, however, is assume that, because that person drives a Chevy, that Chevy owners are racist. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/994 "2011-05-13T18:37:02Z")
[We’re just a couple of frozen Embryos](http://www.themadmusicarchive.com/song_details.aspx?SongID=3906) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/995 "2011-05-13T18:38:02Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Well, from what I can tell, it’s now apparently the “from implantation” argument. . . which would be one of the inconsistencies that pop up. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/996 "2011-05-13T18:40:11Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > I agree. But there’s nothing about being pro-life that’s “related” to being fiscally conservative (socially conservative, maybe), nor related to any particular political party. Nor is it prudent to assume that, because you don’t agree with a particular tenet held by people, their reason for holding this tenet is subterfuge, or that they are “dumb” or “insecure”, or misogynistic, etc. There simply is something about being anti-abortion rights that’s “related” to any particular political party. One party is pledged to protect women’s rights to seek abortion; the other is pledged to overturn it. > [@Beniamino](#): > > Now, if you find someone who dislikes Black people for the sole fact of their being Black, it is reasonably to assume that _ **that particular person** _ may hold illogical views about “race” in general, which may likely influence his prima facie opinion of South Asians in general. > > What you cannot do, however, is assume that, because that person drives a Chevy, that Chevy owners are racist. If the overwhelming majority of people who choose to drive Chevy’s are racist, and there is a political party pledged to both having everyone drive Chevy’s and imposing racist policies, it is a acceptable to say you think it likely a Chevy driver is a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/997 "2011-05-13T18:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The woman and man involved in the harvesting of eggs for in vitro fertilization have the intent of implanting embryos to get pregnant. The fact that the process may possibly end with extra embryos is not their intent, but simply a side-effect of the process. I’m under the impression that just about all couples undergoing this procedure know that the process will almost certainly result in more embryos than are used. What’s more, from what I understand, doctors generally transplant multiple embryos at a time, with the INTENTION of selective abortion later in the pregnancy. So yeah…IVF pretty much guarantees that more zygotes are created than used, and then, if some of the embryos don’t die or miscarry naturally, then the plan is to abort some of them. Unless, of course, it’s Octomom’s doc, in which case he will implant more embryos than the standard calls for. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/998 "2011-05-13T18:54:28Z")
Yup. If you go in for IVF, you do so with the understanding that you will kill or discard more embryos than you will carry. So if the lives of teeeeeeeeeeeeeny humans is of concern to someone, they should violently oppose IVF. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/999 "2011-05-13T18:59:53Z")
> [@villa](#): > > There simply is something about being anti-abortion rights that’s “related” to any particular political party. One party is pledged to protect women’s rights to seek abortion; the other is pledged to overturn it. > > If the overwhelming majority of people who choose to drive Chevy’s are racist, and there is a political party pledged to both having everyone drive Chevy’s and imposing racist policies, it is acceptable to say you think it likely a Chevy driver is a racist. Isn’t that sloppy thinking, though? I mean, conjuring up a whole host of imputed principles to your interlocutor on the basis of one or two professed principles? Yes, the Democratic platform likely does say something about making sure anyone who wants to kill a baby in the first trimester can do so (if you object to my characterization, than you may refer to “pro-life” advocates as such, rather than “anti-abortion rights”), and the Republican platform probably does contain language about rights to life. But it is not helpful to make the assumption “Pro-life ==\> Republican” where there is a sizable minority of Democratic pro-life advocates. The Catholic Church, for example, is clearly in favor of ending abortion, and is clearly dedicated to social justice for the poor, racial equality, pacificsm, ending the death penalty, environmental protection, workers’ rights, social welfare systems, etc. And there’s a billion of them! In short, it’s a heuristic that eases one’s conscience by allowing one to associate one’s interlocutor with something distasteful, and therefore comfortably demonize him. For the sake of debate (and being an all around decent human being), wouldn’t it be more helpful to assume, until proven wrong, that your interlocutor is materially identical to yourself, with the exception of his feelings on the topic at issue. Try it and see how it works. Regarding the Chevy / racist thing. No, that’s not acceptable – you’re unfairly prejudging those who drive Chevys and are not racist, just as you’re unfairly judging those who affirm life and are not Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1000 "2011-05-13T19:02:58Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Isn’t that sloppy thinking, though? Being pro-life? Generally, yes. > [@](#): > > For the sake of debate (and being an all around decent human being), wouldn’t it be more helpful to assume, until proven wrong, that your interlocutor is materially identical to yourself, with the exception of his feelings on the topic at issue. All around decent human beings don’t want to turn me or anyone else into an unwilling incubator, and people who do are entirely unlike me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=51)