# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1141 "2011-05-14T17:26:50Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I know life begins at conception. Try and prove otherwise. You never did respond to any of the questions or scenarios that I mentioned in post #1089, among others. If you could put aside the “baby killing” notion for a second, consider a scenario like this one: Bob and Betty find that she is pregnant. After a time, it is found that the fetus is horrifically malformed to the point that even if it survives delivery, it will live for only days or weeks before dying, it will suffer until it dies, and the devastated parents will wrack up a humongous and catrastrophic medical bill even though they have good insurance. Bob and Betty discuss the situation with their doctor, clergy, what have you, and decide that the best thing for all concerned is to abort, thereby sparing the fetus a short life of misery and sparing the parents a severe financial strain, not to mention the serious emotional strain of watching the baby die after it comes out. Or this: A woman is raped and brutalized. She gets pregnant but does not want to go through a pregnancy since it will be very hard on her physically and emotionally, and she does not want the constant reminder of what was done to her without her consent and against her will. She decides to abort. * * * I am asking you to consider that there are extenuating circumstances that are much more complex than your “baby killing” mantra. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1142 "2011-05-14T18:04:06Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **classyladyhp** thank you. > > You have clarified your own position: > > 1. Abortion is murder from conception. > 2. Very early abortions are permissable. > 3. Early abortions are preferable to later abortions. No that is my opinion. It’s great that you think that about me though:rolleyes: Abortion is the killing of an embryo that has implanted in the mother’s womb. I have no idea where 2 and 3 come from. Some figment of your imagination perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1143 "2011-05-14T18:11:18Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > If life begins at conception, should women who have had procreation-capable sex be holding funerals every time they have some spotting a few days after ovulation, or if their period starts a bit early, since those are potential signs that, like 1/3 will do, a fertilized egg hasn’t implanted and has instead been flushed right out of their uteruses? > > If life begins at conception, shouldn’t we be terribly sad that our bodies abort 1 in 3 of our babies? Our own uteruses are big bullying abortionists. We should do something about that, shouldn’t we? :rolleyes: Yes I understand that many pregnancies are aborted by the body BEFORE a womaneven knows that she is pregnant. In those cases though the woman did not know she was pregnant unless she took an HCG test. Chemical pregnancies are very early miscarriages. Miscarriages are not deliberate abortions so how in the heck can you even attempt to comapre the two??? How can we stop natural miscarriages? the only way we could is to send a little tiny machine to grab a sperm and an egg cell and determine that they are chromosomally sound/free of defects etc. I don’t think that’s going to happen. The reason these miscarriages happen is usually because there was a defect in the baby so severe that the body recognizes it and expels the fetus. Not the same thing at all:smack: So to summarize: You are trying to compare a natural miscarriage to a deliberate abortion…not the same at all. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1144 "2011-05-14T18:13:24Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > The thing is, both types of IUDs potentially work both ways. > > While the Copper IUD acts mostly by direct toxicity on gametes, it may prevent implantation- we suspect not, but we can’t say for sure. > > The MIrena IUS secretes a hormone which thickens cervical mucus, prevents ovulation and thins the uterine lining. While in the vast majority of users the sperm won’t make it to the fallopian tube, and there will be no egg there to fertilise, it is possible that the thinned uterine lining would prevent implantation, should an embryo make it that far. > > So, while prevention of implantation probably isn’t a major mechanism of action for either type, it is a possible MOA for both. > > [http://www.fhi.org/en/rh/pubs/factsheets/mechact.htm](http://www.fhi.org/en/rh/pubs/factsheets/mechact.htm) > > Are you ok with that grey area? That’s the reason I have never used an IUD. I asked my OB if they cause abortions and he said no. I didn’t trust that answer though. I’m not sure why he would lie to me? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1145 "2011-05-14T18:15:23Z")
> [@Little\_Bird](#): > > Yeah, time and the environment and nutrients of a woman’s womb. If that cell is expelled it won’t develop on the sidewalk. > > If my body decides it doesn’t want to be pregnant any more, it will have a miscarriage. If my mind decides it doesn’t want to be pregnant, it will get an abortion. I don’t see why my body gets to decide whether it wants to be pregnant, but my mind doesn’t. Your body is not your mind. It doesn’t “decide” to miscarry. In the vast majority of cases it recongnizes that the fetus is defective and ends the pregnancy. The vast majority of downs syndrome fetuses are expelled naturally by the body as well as those with certain other trisomies. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1146 "2011-05-14T18:21:38Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > If IUD’s prevent the sperm and egg from joining then that is ok. I don’t agree with IUD’s that prevent the embryo from implanting. I would rather people use these form of birth control then to abort and already implanted embryo. I took that to mean you prefer people used IUDs than had abortions, even if the IUDs work by preventing implantation- which you also consider to be abortion. Is that not what you meant? Apologies. I don’t believe your OB intentionally lied to you- as mentioned, your definition of abortion isn’t the same as the definition used by the medical profession. He may have meant “IUDs do not cause miscarriage of already implanted embryos”- which is true. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1147 "2011-05-14T18:38:19Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > I took that to mean you prefer people used IUDs than had abortions, even if the IUDs work by preventing implantation- which you also consider to be abortion. > > Is that not what you meant? > Apologies. > > I don’t believe your OB intentionally lied to you- as mentioned, your definition of abortion isn’t the same as the definition used by the medical profession. > > **He may have meant “IUDs do not cause miscarriage of already implanted embryos”- which is true**. I’m sure that’s what he meant now. Is there not any IUD out there that prevents sperm and egg from joining. I am not against contraception. I had a tubal ligation done (cauterization). ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1148 "2011-05-14T18:44:25Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’m not sure why he would lie to me? Because he realizes that you don’t understand complex concepts, definitions or big words? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1149 "2011-05-14T18:46:39Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Because he realizes that you don’t understand complex concepts, definitions or big words? Like I realize that you, my dear, are basically an idiot. Thanks to Irishgirl though for being respectful. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1150 "2011-05-14T18:51:19Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Like I realize that you, my dear, are basically a dumbass. > Thanks to Irishgirl though for being respectful. … > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Thanks again. Keep insulting me it only serves to make you look the same way you accused me of looking > I for one am happy to be intelligent enough to be able to express my opinions without resulting to personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1151 "2011-05-14T18:54:29Z")
Oh shut-up would you? You’re the one who came on here stalking me and insulting me again. I guess you don’t have any friends so you have to come on here to be an arrogant nitwit. That’s your forte. Arrogance and condescension. I was having a nice discussion with some other posters and you had to come on here and interject your rudeness and toxicity. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1152 "2011-05-14T18:56:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > But.. She’s so classy!\* > > And a lady!\*\* > > - demonstrably not, judging from the evidence of her posts > \*\* likely not even female, and if so, probably under the age of 16. .. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1153 "2011-05-14T18:58:22Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I hope she does not make me write 50 lines of “I have a potty mouth and want to kill baybees”. .. Euphony I’m no longer responding to you. Get back under that bridge troll. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1154 "2011-05-14T19:11:50Z")
**classylady** IUDs work mostly by preventing sperm and egg meeting- however, there is a possibility that any foreign body in the uterine cavity will prevent implantation of an embryo. Prevention of implantation isn’t the main way they work, it might be no more than a rare, possible way that they work, but it can’t be claimed that it is never the way that they work. Do read my previous post and cite if you want more info. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1155 "2011-05-14T19:14:53Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **classylady** IUDs work mostly by preventing sperm and egg meeting- however, there is a possibility that any foreign body in the uterine cavity will prevent implantation of an embryo. > > Prevention of implantation isn’t the main way they work, it might be no more than a rare, possible way that they work, but it can’t be claimed that it is never the way that they work. Do read my previous post and cite if you want more info. Again, thanks for answering my questions with respect:) ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1156 "2011-05-14T19:38:39Z")
You still won’t answer mine. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1157 "2011-05-14T19:42:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So that’s fine. > > As you say: You’re not guilty of killing me, even if you agree to support me, and then you decide not to. It just potentially makes you a jerk, depending on your reasons. > > A pregnant woman is not guilty of killing her fetus, because abortion doesn’t need to involve killing it, just removing it from the uterus. Even though she can be said to have effectively “agreed” to support the fetus (by having sex), and then she decided not to. (legally, this is certain–\*\*Bricker \*\*has already let us know that women have no legal duty of care to their fertilized embryos) It just potentially makes her a jerk, depending on her reasons. Consent to _sex_ is not consent to pregnancy. Those are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1158 "2011-05-14T20:30:07Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what? Life begins at conception. Therefore abortions cause the death of the embryo. A mosquito is alive, too. We zap those. Cause their death. For real. Hell, so is a sperm, under some definitions of what life is. Life don’t mean shit. So, what you want to say is that HUMAN life begins at conception. But “science” says nothing of the sort. “Science” says a fertilized ovum will possibly turn into a gastrula, then a blastula, then a morula, then assuming it can latch onto the uterus will turn into an embryo, then a fetus, which will eventually be delivered as an infant, which might become a full grown human in time with any luck. It doesn’t say a zygote is a human. Not in biological terms, certainly not in moral terms since science don’t do no morals none. To put it bluntly, if human life started at fertilization (along with all the rights granted to fully grown human beings) then miscarriage would be manslaughter. Which it isn’t. So, get a new line already. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1159 "2011-05-14T20:49:37Z")
No miscarriage would not be manslaughter. In naturally ocurring miscarriages the woman did NOTHING to cause the end of the pregnancy. You’re being ridiculous. Your argument in totally illogical. If the woman actually did do something to cause the miscarriage then it would be manslaughter according to your argument. Which makes not sense BTW. There are two types of manslaughter: voluntary and involuntary. Voluntary manslaughter occurs when someone commits a crime due to provocation. For example, if two men get in a fight outside a bar and one of the men accidentally kills the other, he will be charged with manslaughter, because he has caused the death of a human being, but he didn’t mean to. Likewise, a burglar who is surprised by a security guard and accidentally kills the security guard would be charged with manslaughter, unless he committed the killing with a weapon such as a gun, which would suggest some malice aforethought. Involuntary manslaughter occurs as a result of negligence. The killer was not provoked, and did not mean to kill anyone, but his or her negligent actions led to a death. A classic example of this form is vehicular manslaughter, in which someone’s reckless driving leads to a death. If someone can prove that the negligence was intentional, the charge may be upgraded to murder. In some regions, someone with a history of driving under the influence (DUI) convictions may be charged with murder for a death which occurs as a result of drinking and driving, rather than manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1160 "2011-05-14T20:54:45Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Consent to _sex_ is not consent to pregnancy. Those are two different things. It is consent to the possibility of pregnancy. The only 100% method of contraception is abstinence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=59)