# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1161 "2011-05-14T20:58:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > A mosquito is alive, too. We zap those. Cause their death. For real. > Hell, so is a sperm, under some definitions of what life is. Life don’t mean shit. > > So, what you want to say is that HUMAN life begins at conception. But “science” says nothing of the sort. “Science” says a fertilized ovum will possibly turn into a gastrula, then a blastula, then a morula, then assuming it can latch onto the uterus will turn into an embryo, then a fetus, which will eventually be delivered as an infant, which might become a full grown human in time with any luck. > > It doesn’t say a zygote is a human. Not in biological terms, certainly not in moral terms since science don’t do no morals none. > > To put it bluntly, if human life started at fertilization (along with all the rights granted to fully grown human beings) then miscarriage would be manslaughter. Which it isn’t. So, get a new line already. Well, technically speaking it is human and alive, but that doesn’t make it a baby or a person in those early stages and no amount of passionate belief and repetition is going to make it so. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1162 "2011-05-14T21:00:55Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > It is consent to the possibility of pregnancy. The only 100% method of contraception is abstinence. Shit, I clicked answer before I realized it was the angry church lady. What, are you angry that other women are having sex and you’re not? If life begins at conception then apparently as a fetus, Classlady was shortchanged in certain cerebral stages. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1163 "2011-05-14T21:02:05Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Virtually every secular medical book and even a senate hearing declare human life begins the instant of conception. > > Human life begins at conception. Since abortion kills the fetus it ends a human life. Every human has a right to life and the right of the mother to not be inconvenienced is not more important than the baby’s right to live. Your second point does not follow from your first. Biologists may agree that life begins at conception (I’m not actually convinced that they do unanimously agree about that, but let’s say they do), but what you fail to grasp is that ‘life’ in a biological sense is not the same as ‘life’ in the sense of personhood, sentience, etc. The latter is a philosophical or ethical concept, not a biological or scientific one. That you think the embryo has a right to life is purely a matter of opinion, not science. An embryo may have ‘life’ in the sense that it has 46 chromosomes and will develop into a new person eventually if all goes right, but that doesn’t mean it has ‘life’ in the sense of having rights, opinions, desires, or even the ability to suffer. The woman on the other hand definitely has a life in both senses, so forcing her to suffer and to lose her rights doesn’t really make much sense. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > HUMAN life begins at conception. A person in a coma is not conscious. So should Dr.'s just be allowed to pull the plug whenever they feel like it? Again, a poor example. A doctor shouldn’t be able to pull the plug whenever he feels like it just like a doctor shouldn’t be able to kidnap a woman and perform an abortion whenever he feels like it. But you must be aware that the families of people in comas do generally have the right to pull the plug if they feel that it is the right thing to do. Similarly, people can acquire DNRs for themselves, family members or minor children under the right circumstances. So your idea that all other human life is sacred and abortion is the only time we make an exception to this rule is just false. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1164 "2011-05-14T21:04:07Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Shit, I clicked answer before I realized it was the angry church lady. What, are you angry that other women are having sex and you’re not? > > If life begins at conception then apparently as a fetus, Classlady was shortchanged in certain cerebral stages. Oh shut up. You ignorant moron. I have never once stated if I am religious or what religion I am so shut up. I’m pissed off that babies are being killed by their own mothers though. So lets dumb it down and stoop to your level shall we? Jealous because I’m smarter than you and the best you can do is call me names? You’re pathetic. That’s all I’m saying to you disrepectful troll. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1165 "2011-05-14T21:18:22Z")
Suppose someone were to argue as follows: “There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be prohibited throughout pregnancy.” Why is this argument any more, or less, reasonable than the argument that:“There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be allowed throughout pregnancy?” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1166 "2011-05-14T21:25:43Z")
So, lady,any thoughts on the questions in post #1079? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1167 "2011-05-14T21:27:05Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Suppose someone were to argue as follows: “There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be prohibited throughout pregnancy.” Why is this argument any more, or less, reasonable than the argument that:“There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be allowed throughout pregnancy?” I’d say neither argument has a compelling point. When human life begins is not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1168 "2011-05-14T21:33:31Z")
Because, **classylady** , when given the choice between the most restrictive option and the least restrictive, when talking about human rights, generally the least restrictive option is preferred. Certainly, not having exceptions for life or health of the mother would be unconstitutional in the US, and would be anti international Human Rights legislation in countries which have signed up to that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1169 "2011-05-14T21:37:26Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Shit, I clicked answer before I realized it was the angry church lady. What, are you angry that other women are having sex and you’re not? > > If life begins at conception then apparently as a fetus, Classlady was shortchanged in certain cerebral stages. Is this kind of post entertaining to you? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1170 "2011-05-14T21:37:52Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Oh shut up. You ignorant moron. I have never once stated if I am religious or what religion I am so shut up. I’m pissed off that babies are being killed by their own mothers though. > So lets dumb it down and stoop to your level shall we? Jealous because I’m smarter than you and the best you can do is call me names? > You’re pathetic. That’s all I’m saying to you disrepectful troll. Continually calling embryos ‘babies’ is doing nothing to support your cause. Claiming to be smarter than others is also doing nothing to support it. And accusing other people of calling you names when you have repeatedly gone into a rage and called other people bitches, assholes, idiots, and morons is also not helping you. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1171 "2011-05-14T21:41:36Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Suppose someone were to argue as follows: “There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be prohibited throughout pregnancy.” Why is this argument any more, or less, reasonable than the argument that:“There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be allowed throughout pregnancy?” What about the argument “No matter when human life begins, one should not be forced to support something and allow them it to grow inside their body against their will”? How do you feel about that? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1172 "2011-05-14T21:44:28Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Suppose someone were to argue as follows: “There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be prohibited throughout pregnancy.” Why is this argument any more, or less, reasonable than the argument that:“There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be allowed throughout pregnancy?” Because , IMO, on one hand you’re allowing women to make their own choices about their lives and their bodies, and with the other you aren’t. That’s not a minor thing. With one you’re imposing your personal opinion and morals on others, who are no threat to you, or society, and with the other you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1173 "2011-05-14T21:51:56Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > What about the argument “No matter when human life begins, one should not be forced to support something and allow them it to grow inside their body against their will”? How do you feel about that? we know that don’t we , based on the post that said, > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **classyladyhp** > Like I said. I am not the one who caused your kidney’s to fail and you are a stranger to me. I have no obligation to save your life. According to that , it’s morally okay to let people die even when we have the ability to save them, providing they are a stranger. Yet is some strange way it’s also okay to interfere in the lives of strangers to force your beliefs on them, because now it’s babies, or potential babies. How’s that for all life being sacred? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1174 "2011-05-14T21:56:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Is this kind of post entertaining to you? You can’t seriously argue that she’s worth arguing with. I mean…“Shut up, shut up, shut up!” Yeah, I’m convinced all right. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1175 "2011-05-14T21:56:06Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, lady,any thoughts on the questions in post #1079? I posed similar questions, but she’s still ignoring both of us. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1176 "2011-05-14T21:58:42Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Continually calling embryos ‘babies’ is doing nothing to support your cause. Claiming to be smarter than others is also doing nothing to support it. And accusing other people of calling you names when you have repeatedly gone into a rage and called other people bitches, assholes, idiots, and morons is also not helping you. > > Try again. Funnily enough, she didn’t go all out and call women sluts, just indicated that they could have kept their legs closed. I’m not sure what that has to do with getting pregnant. Olympic gymnasts, for example, do the splits all the time, yet they remain—according to appearances and abilities—unimpregnated. I guess women get pregnant all by themselves. It must be magic. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1177 "2011-05-14T22:00:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Chemical pregnancies are very early miscarriages. If you want to argue intelligently, you need to learn the terminology. You CONSISTENTLY use the wrong words and phrases. Doing this once or twice is understandable and forgivable. Doing it repeatedly indicates that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, and that your entire argument, such as it is, is based only on emotions, without any factual basis whatsoever. The fact that you consistently cite biased sources, and that you think that US senators have a good grip on science knowledge, only makes you more pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1178 "2011-05-14T22:08:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well, technically speaking it is human and alive, but that doesn’t make it a baby or a person in those early stages and no amount of passionate belief and repetition is going to make it so. Alive ? Sure. See above: life don’t mean shit. Human ? It has the potential to become human, sure, but as you say it probably isn’t. Again, it depends on what one defines as “human”. To me, something that isn’t even a partially developed human being isn’t human, even if it carries human DNA. Cancer carries human DNA. My receding hair carries human DNA. But I’ll grant you that YMMV - all the more reason for individual choice. Nobody draws the line in exactly the same place. I, for one, draw it at birth+15 years :p. [QUOTE=classyladyhp] There are two types of manslaughter […] Involuntary manslaughter occurs as a result of negligence. The killer was not provoked, and did not mean to kill anyone, but his or her negligent actions led to a death. [/QUOTE] Precisely. A woman who miscarries probably didn’t intend to. But she did. And if an embryo is the same as a human being, then the matter of whether we should burn the slaughtering witch should follow. I didn’t \*intend \*my car to run over your mother, why should I be punished for an accident when the formerly pregnant woman isn’t ? She could have done drugs, or forgot to quit smoking, or drunk too many beers that one time, or taken horse riding classes. Any amount of things could have resulted in this lack of implantation, or that tragically early release. It’s not Karma. So if you think a zygote = a human being, you \*should \*be calling for investigation over that sort of thing, and severe punishment on negligent expecting mothers. If you were being intellectually honest and consistent, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1179 "2011-05-14T22:10:09Z")
> [@margin](#): > > You can’t seriously argue that she’s worth arguing with. I mean…“Shut up, shut up, shut up!” Yeah, I’m convinced all right. So you’re interpreting my question as some sort of assertion? They’re two different things ya know. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1180 "2011-05-14T22:22:09Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > If you want to argue intelligently, you need to learn the terminology. . :rolleyes: [http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/chemical-pregnancy.html](http://www.babyhopes.com/articles/chemical-pregnancy.html) [http://www.suite101.com/content/the-emotional-impact-of-early-miscarriage-or-chemical-pregnancy-a211587](http://www.suite101.com/content/the-emotional-impact-of-early-miscarriage-or-chemical-pregnancy-a211587) > **[Pregnancy Problem](https://www.targetwoman.com/articles/pregnancy-problem.html)** > > Bleeding during pregnancy is a common pregnancy problem that alarms many a woman. Read through this informative guide on various pregnancy complications that can threaten a pregnancy. This article throws light on ectopic pregnancy, diabetes during... > **[Addressing inequalities in women's health research](https://www.contemporaryobgyn.net/view/addressing-inequalities-in-women-s-health-research)** > > In this month's issue, Contemporary OB/GYN Editor-in-Chief Dr. Catherine Y. Spong talks about the ways in which women's health research has and continues to be marginalized. Addressing these inequalities, Dr. Spong says, demands a change of culture... Perhaps you should do a little more reading. A chemical pregnancy is a very early miscarriage. I’ll explain further. Chemical means that the presence of HCG has been detected and therefore the embryo had implanted but then went onto miscarry. These women take a test and it is positive then another is negative. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=60)