# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1181 "2011-05-14T22:23:48Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > You CONSISTENTLY use the wrong words and phrases You are consistently arrogant. I’ll give you that. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1182 "2011-05-14T22:24:06Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > :rolleyes: Yes I understand that many pregnancies are aborted by the body BEFORE a womaneven knows that she is pregnant. In those cases though the woman did not know she was pregnant unless she took an HCG test. So what? If human life begins at conception than all those early miscarriages are the end of human life and by virtue of your application of importance to blastocysts that haven’t implanted, each of those early miscarriages deserves some notice. I’m simply following your assertion to its logical conclusion. If a blastocyst is sacred human life, then it’s passing should be given some sort of notice, shouldn’t it? > [@](#): > > Chemical pregnancies are very early miscarriages. No they’re not. Try Googling before you use terminology. It’ll help you to not look so bad. > [@](#): > > Miscarriages are not deliberate abortions so how in the heck can you even attempt to comapre the two??? Let’s follow the logical chain of your argument, shall we? Human life begins at conception. The results of said conception do not implant 1 in 3 times (if not more often). If those unimplanted dead blastocysts represented, by virtue of being the products of _conception_ sacred human life worthy of protection even against the wishes and will of the woman involved, why do we not put any effort in recognizing or solemnizing those ended lives? Because it’s inconvenient? Because we can’t know for sure? Or is it because a continual focus on the status of ovulation and conception and non-implantation might just point out the spurious nature of the assertion that conception represents an meaningful act within the sphere of human life as it is ordinarily lived? I’m asking for you to actually stop and think about this. Ignore what you want to call an faulty comparison, and give me a solid reason why we don’t pay any attention to fertilized eggs, which you call babies, which do not implant. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1183 "2011-05-14T22:28:50Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > So what? If human life begins at conception than all those early miscarriages are the end of human life and by virtue of your application of importance to blastocysts that haven’t implanted, each of those early miscarriages deserves some notice. > No they’re not. Try Googling before you use terminology. It’ll help you to not look so bad. > Let’s follow the logical chain of your argument, shall we? A woman does not always know she has miscarried if her period is 1 or 2 days late. Most miscarriages happen before the woman knows she is pregnant. A chemical pregnancy is a miscarriage. You must have missed my post explaining why. If it’s not how would YOU define it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1184 "2011-05-14T22:32:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Alive ? Sure. See above: life don’t mean shit. > > Human ? It has the potential to become human, sure, but as you say it probably isn’t. Again, it depends on what one defines as “human”. To me, something that isn’t even a partially developed human being isn’t human, even if it carries human DNA. Cancer carries human DNA. My receding hair carries human DNA. > But I’ll grant you that YMMV - all the more reason for individual choice. Nobody draws the line in exactly the same place. I, for one, draw it at birth+15 years :p. I’m nit picking for the sake of clearly defining the terms. It’s a live and human because of that human DNA, but living human tissue, doesn’t equal A human being, a baby, or an independent person. If you look at the[link I posted earlier](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm) it says > [@](#): > > The zygote "…is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life: > > ``` > metabolism, > growth, > reaction to stimuli, and > reproduction." > > ``` It’s even unique in it’s DNA, but that still doesn’t make it a person. IMO, it’s correct to say it’s human and alive, but as others have noted, a group of cells with unique human DNA, is not a person. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1185 "2011-05-14T22:33:45Z")
Forgot to add that a chemical pregnancy would be a miscarriage before the fifth week of gestation – or within about week after your missed menstrual period. A clinical pregnancy is when a pregnancy can be seen on ultrasound. Chemical pregnancies may account for 50-75% of all miscarriages. This occurs when a pregnancy is lost shortly after implantation, resulting in bleeding that occurs around the time of her expected period. I got this from the following link: > **[American Pregnancy Association](https://americanpregnancy.org)** > > Pregnant? We're here to support you. Everything on pregnancy, fertility, contraception & more. Access live chat, tools, resources. So don’t tell me I use the incorrect terminology. It is a miscarriage early in the pregnancy and in some cases the fetus has not yet implanted and in other it has implanted. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1186 "2011-05-14T23:02:07Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m nit picking for the sake of clearly defining the terms. It’s a live and human because of that human DNA, but living human tissue, doesn’t equal A human being, a baby, or an independent person. > > If you look at the[link I posted earlier](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fetu.htm) it says […quote…] > > It’s even unique in it’s DNA, but that still doesn’t make it a person. IMO, it’s correct to say it’s human and alive, but as others have noted, a group of cells with unique human DNA, is not a person. Let me nitpick further by stating those four criteria are not the only ones considered for narrowing down what constitutes “life”. There are other, more demanding definitions for it. But admittedly it doesn’t really matter because I don’t think a human embryo would be disqualified from “life” under any of them. 0-1, you. _shake fist_ Which leaves us with the definition of “human” - which in the context of the sentence “human life begins at conception” is understood to mean “person”. And what’s a human, when you get right down to it ? Is a brain dead, living corpse human ? A quadruple amputee with locked-in syndrome is definitely human, despite lacking most of everything one would associate with humanity. How about a chimera: a live, 100% functiona &l human-looking being whose cells carry two (or more) different sets of DNA ? If you define humanity narrowly enough, people with heterochromosomes won’t fit, either. I, for one, arbitrarily set the bar at self-awareness and nociception. If something knows it’s a thing, then it is that thing. If something feels pain, then whatever causes it to feel pain shouldn’t be done to it. But considering even live born babies don’t know where they themselves end and where the external world begins for another 6-12 months AFAIK ; and late term abortions presumably\* involve enough anaesthetic to put a pony to sleep (never mind a full grown human being), I think I’m relatively safe there. Feel free to dispel these notions. Do give me a factually unsolvable ethical quandary. Go on, asshole. What do you care if I can’t sleep at night any more ? 🙂 - I have no idea how late term abortions work. For all I know they could be drop kicking the mother in the belly until something goes “flatch”. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1187 "2011-05-14T23:37:25Z")
**classylady** Foetuses, by [definition](http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3424), have implanted. It is either an [embryo](http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/embryo) or [blastocyst](http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=18258) before that. This is the kind of issue with language **Lynn** meant. When you use the wrong terms it doesn’t help your argument. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1188 "2011-05-14T23:52:56Z")
**Kobal2** Late term abortions may involve general anaesthesia for the woman and extraction of the foetus through the cervix. Alternatively, it may involve giving a medication to shut down the placenta and kill the foetus, prior to inducing labour. Sometimes labour is simply induced and the delivery ends in a stillbirth. In very rare cases a hysterotomy is performed- essentially a c-section. This may be necessary when, for example, a large fibroid or scar tissue blocks the cervix. The decision will be based on clinical circumstances, the experience and skill of the doctors and the preference of the woman. Bottom line- not quick, not easy, not painless. Still, sometimes, IMO the best option. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1189 "2011-05-15T00:02:02Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Other than in cases of rape she was responsible for putting the fetus in her womb. Nope. If I were to get pregnant, it would be the hand of God. I had a tubal in 1988 and just finished menopause about a year ago. However, it has happened that tubals fail and post menopausal women have been know to get pregnant. If it happened to me, I wouldn’t be responsible for that clump of dividing cells because I have done everything possible to ensure I do not get pregnant. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I am not ok with methods of contraception that prevent the implantation of the fertilized embryo or that force the uterus to expel and implanted embryo. So, you don’t believe that human life starts at conception? 😕 > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Miscarriages are not deliberate abortions. You don’t know that - women who do not have access to abortions have been known to fall down stairs and drink all sorts of weird shit in order to induce a miscarriage. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > It is consent to the possibility of pregnancy. The only 100% method of contraception is abstinence. So, because you have this unsupportable belief that a fertilized egg must be the same thing as a live, breathing human, the only sex that should be allowed is when the woman desires to become pregnant? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > Suppose someone were to argue as follows: “There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be prohibited throughout pregnancy.” Why is this argument any more, or less, reasonable than the argument that:“There is a lack of consensus about when human life begins; therefore, abortion should be allowed throughout pregnancy?” Because the real live breathing human woman is far more important than your lack of consensus. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1190 "2011-05-15T00:05:34Z")
Thanks for the clarification (well, for a relative value of thanks, I suppose. I’m blaming the nightmares on you ! 🙂 ). I would have sworn they killed the foetus before yoinking it away by this or that method. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1191 "2011-05-15T00:14:15Z")
**classylady** To clarify A “miscarriage” implies carriage, which means implantation. A pregnancy begins from the moment of implantation, NOT the moment of conception, which occurs 7-14 days beforehand. A “chemical pregnancy” means that sperm and egg have met and HCG levels have risen, it does not, _necessarily_ mean that implantation has occurred Early pregnancy loss, or very early miscarriage are socially acceptable ways of describing a chemical pregnancy- it doesn’t follow, however, that all chemical pregnancies were even pregnancies. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1192 "2011-05-15T00:14:21Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Because , IMO, on one hand you’re allowing women to make their own choices about their lives and their bodies, and with the other you aren’t. That’s not a minor thing. > > With one you’re imposing your personal opinion and morals on others, who are no threat to you, or society, and with the other you aren’t. All rights have limits. [http://www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c13.html#cac130500](http://www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c13.html#cac130500) > [@](#): > > Suicide is taking one’s own life. Suicide and attempted suicide no longer are crimes in California. However, it is a felony for someone deliberately to aid, advise, or encourage another to commit suicide. Society is HOW we decide which rules govern everyone and by definition is about imposing one set of beliefs on subsets of society that do not share them. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1193 "2011-05-15T00:25:29Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > All rights have limits. > > [http://www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c13.html#cac130500](http://www.weblocator.com/attorney/ca/law/c13.html#cac130500) > > Society is HOW we decide which rules govern everyone and by definition is about imposing one set of beliefs on subsets of society that do not share them. Of course, but as we have evolved and grown certain standards have become more common and accepted, such as the ones I mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1194 "2011-05-15T00:44:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Of course, but as we have evolved and grown certain standards have become more common and accepted, such as the ones I mentioned. Evolved is a loaded term. We may find in a couple generations as technology advances that anything beyond 1st term abortion is considered barbaric even considering _today’s_ technology. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1195 "2011-05-15T00:48:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, lady,any thoughts on the questions in post #1079? I’ve noticed that classy has a tendency to skip questions that are respectfully asked but pointed questions that might force her to change her axioms or admit illogic in her position. Or we could be charitable and assume she doesn’t read the whole thread every time she returns, and only answers the last few posts. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1196 "2011-05-15T01:30:59Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Evolved is a loaded term. We may find in a couple generations as technology advances that anything beyond 1st term abortion is considered barbaric even considering _today’s_ technology. Maybe, but I think it’s likely we will have to evolve enough to be taking much better care of the people already in society before we think it’s barbaric to not ad more. Abortions are already done in the 1 term by a huge margin. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1197 "2011-05-15T01:45:12Z")
I’d like to add puss to this festering sore of a thread: > [@Lynn Bodoni](#): > > > [@classyladyhp](#): > > > > I know life begins at conception. Try and prove otherwise. > > You don’t get to declare such things. You are not scientifically trained, and while you can state that you BELIEVE that life begins at conception, you are not an authority on the subject, no matter how strong your feelings are. Since there’s a conga line of people taking turns bashing **classychildishladyhp** I’d like to take the opportunity to point out this ridiculous piece of jackal bay. **Lynn Bodoni** , you are _also_ a moron. Name one scientist that thinks a zygote isn’t alive. Putz. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1198 "2011-05-15T01:45:13Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’ve noticed that classy has a tendency to skip questions that are respectfully asked but pointed questions that might force her to change her axioms or admit illogic in her position. > > Or we could be charitable and assume she doesn’t read the whole thread every time she returns, and only answers the last few posts. I noticed that as well. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1199 "2011-05-15T02:09:40Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **classylady** > > To clarify > > A “miscarriage” implies carriage, which means implantation. > > A pregnancy begins from the moment of implantation, NOT the moment of conception, which occurs 7-14 days beforehand. > > A “chemical pregnancy” means that sperm and egg have met and HCG levels have risen, it does not, _necessarily_ mean that implantation has occurred > > Early pregnancy loss, or very early miscarriage are socially acceptable ways of describing a chemical pregnancy- it doesn’t follow, however, that all chemical pregnancies were even pregnancies. I mentioned that already. It is a pregnancy that can be confirmed chemically but not clinically. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1200 "2011-05-15T02:14:14Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I’d like to add puss to this festering sore of a thread: > Since there’s a conga line of people taking turns bashing **classychildishladyhp** I’d like to take the opportunity to point out this ridiculous piece of jackal bay. > > **Lynn Bodoni** , you are _also_ a moron. Name one scientist that thinks a zygote isn’t alive. > > Putz. _Cancer_ is alive, dickwad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=61)