# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1241 "2011-05-15T14:21:20Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > No I’m not, because it’s not relevant to this discussion. The “is it a person” question cannot be dismissed by showing it was once answered incorrectly. Oh but it is totally relevant. Many pro-choicers make the claim that the fetus has no right to life because it is not a person. Others have justified the killing of Jews and the oppression of blacks and women using the same argument. So tell me how it is not relevant. I ask the pro-choicers to prove to me that the fetus in not a person. Can you prove it? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1242 "2011-05-15T14:26:49Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So, number one: the fetus is a person, and you know it. You’re right. > Number two: the fetus is not a person and you know that. You’re right. > Number three: the fetus is a person and you don’t know that. You think it’s not. You’re wrong. > Number four: the fetus is not a person and you think it is. You don’t know the truth. You’re wrong. (Like a Pascal’s wager, two chances of being right, two chances of being wrong.) > What is abortion in each of these cases? The only four possible cases, logically. > > Murder. Case number one: The fetus is a human person, and you know that it is a human person, and nevertheless you kill it. That’s murder. That’s the legal definition of murder. Knowingly and deliberately imposing violent death upon an innocent human person that you know to be an innocent human person. > Manslaughter. The second possibility. The fetus is, in fact, a person, and you don’t know that. You think it’s not a person. You sincerely believe that, “Well, maybe it’s not a person, I don’t know it. I don’t know whether it is or not,” and you kill it. What’s that? Legally, that is manslaughter. Not deliberate murder. It’s like running over an overcoat on a dark night in the middle of a highway, that has the shape of a human being, and it might be an old drunk who’s just lying there, stoned in the road. And it might just be an overcoat. And you don’t swerve, you deliberately run over it. Or, it’s like shooting a movement in the bush that might be a deer, and it might be your fellow hunter. Or, it’s like fumigating a dormitory without being sure that all the students are out, and the fumigation kills them. You might be lucky. You might find that there is no man under the coat, and there is no hunter behind the bush, and there is no student in the dormitory, but you didn’t know that and nevertheless you shot, you fumigated. > Criminal Negligence. That’s criminal negligence if there’s nobody there, it’s manslaughter if there is somebody there. All three cases—murder, criminal negligence, and manslaughter—are bad. > So only the fourth case justifies abortion, and it does. > So, if you can give me some argument that the fourth case is true—not just that a fetus is not a human person, but also you know that it is not a human person, then fine. You’re right. But if you don’t know, if you’re a skeptic, if you say “These pro-lifers are dogmatists, they claim the fetus is a person. Who knows?” Well, that’s all the more reason for not shooting. Exactly because you don’t know. > > The above quote is from a phd in philosophy from Boston college. Please discuss. He’s leaving out a a couple of crucial elements. Not very impressive for a PHD in philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1243 "2011-05-15T14:29:07Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I already responded to the other person. Guess you conveniently missed the response:rolleyes: > A tumor is not human. Show me a tumor that is human. A tumor has no right to life. It is not part of the human species. I think you missed the point of the comment I responded to. You’re implying that the embryo becomes a human and the tumor can’t. If the embryo becomes a human, then at some point it isn’t one yet. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1244 "2011-05-15T14:31:07Z")
**CLHP** Partial moles with a viable foetus or molar/viable twin pregnancies occur. Does a woman get a pass to terminate the viable foetus in order to save her life from the threat posed to it from the molar tissue? Choriocarcinomas have been diagnosed in women who have had live births- if there was a way to find out during that seemingly normal pregnancy that choriocarcinoma would happen, would abortion be ok? > **[Presentation and management of choriocarcinoma after nonmolar pregnancy - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7547762/)** > > Treatment of choriocarcinoma after a live birth is associated with an unacceptably high mortality rate. Vaginal bleeding is an important early symptom and a pregnancy test should be performed if it persists after usual medical treatment. I was super specific in my use of language in the posts about chemical pregnancy. I said it was a poor term because it included events which were not even pregnancies, not that _all_ “chemical pregnancies” occurred prior to implantation. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1245 "2011-05-15T14:36:24Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Oh but it is totally relevant. Many pro-choicers make the claim that the fetus has no right to life because it is not a person. > Others have justified the killing of Jews and the oppression of blacks and women using the same argument. > So tell me how it is not relevant. I already have in a previous post. Maybe you could explain why you think it is. > [@](#): > > I ask the pro-choicers to prove to me that the fetus in not a person. Can you prove it? Let’s not rehash old material. Nobody has to prove anything since nobody is trying to force a belief or choice on you. If you want to believe a fetus is a person and make your choice accordingly , pro choice people support that. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1246 "2011-05-15T14:37:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I think you missed the point of the comment I responded to. You’re implying that the embryo becomes a human and the tumor can’t. If the embryo becomes a human, then at some point it isn’t one yet. That is not what I meant. The embryo is human. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1247 "2011-05-15T14:38:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I already have in a previous post. Maybe you could explain why you think it is. > Let’s not rehash old material. Nobody has to prove anything since nobody is trying to force a belief or choice on you. If you want to believe a fetus is a person and make your choice accordingly , pro choice people support that. This is very important though. If the fetus is a person then abortion should be illegal. It shouldn’t be a question of choice. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1248 "2011-05-15T14:39:04Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’ve also never met a tumor that became human. Have you ever heard of a tumor becoming a human? Since you have seen fit to ignore any questions that might actually make you examine your views or stop spewing contradictory declarative statements… We’ve met you, haven’t we? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1249 "2011-05-15T14:39:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > He’s leaving out a a couple of crucial elements. Not very impressive for a PHD in philosophy. What is he leaving out? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1250 "2011-05-15T14:44:59Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > What in the hell are we supposed to do about natural miscarriages:smack: I oppose the deliberate ending of the life of the fetus by it’s own mother. Again, that doesn’t answer my question. I didn’t ask how to stop miscarriages. I didn’t ask whether or not you were opposed to miscarriages. I asked why, if that’s the ending of a sacred human life, you don’t advocate that such events are given official solemnity and recognition. This _is_ a relevant point, because it illustrates the hypocrisy of the claim that conception is the point at which personhood attaches. The “at conception” model of personhood only ever comes into play in the argument against abortion. If blastocysts and early embryos and even early fetuses were actual persons, who are endowed with full human rights by simple of their existence, then it would be raging hypocrisy and utter callousness to be perfectly okay with the fact that they’re flushed down the toilet and tossed out in the trash, wrapped up on dirty maxi pads. If those are _people_, little preborn human beings, how can treating them in that fashion upon their deaths be tolerable? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1251 "2011-05-15T15:16:31Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > This is very important though. If the fetus is a person then abortion should be illegal. It shouldn’t be a question of choice. That’s the IF alright. It even involves more than that, when deciding the right of the woman to make choices about her own body. It’s not something we can just declare something is factual though, simply because it’s very important. Person-hood, isn’t easily defined by courts, science, or philosophy. That’s why we have the laws we have now. Since you really don’t know, you don’t get to decide. You get to choose what your conscience tells you, not what their conscience should be. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1252 "2011-05-15T15:17:32Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > That is not what I meant. The embryo is human. Sure it is, a potential person, but not a person yet. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1253 "2011-05-15T15:24:17Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > What is he leaving out? Isn’t it obvious? He seems to be claiming since we don’t know , the most moral and safest choice is to decide it is a person , based on his analogies. The problem is his analogies are woefully incomplete. If you drive around a coat in the road because it may be a person, that person isn’t attached to your body. The hunter that may be in the woods isn’t either. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1254 "2011-05-15T15:53:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “But thinking is _haaaarrrrrrrrrd_!” Too hard, apparently, for **classyladymyass** , who still will not (cannot?) respond. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1255 "2011-05-15T16:01:12Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Too hard, apparently, for **classyladymyass** , who still will not (cannot?) respond. repost the question my dearass. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1256 "2011-05-15T16:03:22Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Since you have seen fit to ignore any questions that might actually make you examine your views or stop spewing contradictory declarative statements… > > We’ve met you, haven’t we? Nice try buddy. I asked you to SERIOUSLY answer the question. I didn’t ask you to use insults to avoid the question. This thread should be reopened in great debates so we don’t get the "lets avoid the question because I can’t give her an example so I’ll just insult her "answers. ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1257 "2011-05-15T16:14:45Z")
I wonder if we might illustrate something by experiment: Assumed: [ul] [li]You’re a person who is able to lift no more than 150 lbs and carry that weight down six floors of fire escape one time only before becoming exhausted;[/li][li]You’re on the sixth floor of a building with a freezer of viable human embryos, say 500 in all, and a teenage girl who for whatever reason cannot walk. [/li][li]Both the girl and the freezer weigh 150 lbs.;[/li][li]The building is on fire;[/li][li]You can save only one.[/li][/ul] Choose. Will you let the girl die, or the freezer of 500 embryos? What is the reason for your choosing the way you do? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1258 "2011-05-15T16:18:40Z")
U.S. Federal Law: Public Law 108-212 “The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004,” a.k.a. Laci and Connor’s Law recognizes that an unborn embryo or fetus can be a legal victim if it is injured or killed during the . commission of a federal crime of violence. There are over 60 such crimes defined. The law was named after a mother, Laci Peterson, and her fetus, Connor Peterson, who were murdered circa 2002-Christmas by Scott Peterson in California. The law defines “a child in utero” as any “member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.” The bill passed the House by a vote of 254 to 163 on 2004-FEB-26. It passed the Senate by a vote of 61 to 38 on 2004-MAR-25. President George W Bush signed it into law on 2004-APR-01. He said: “Any time an expectant mother is a victim of violence, two lives are in the balance, each deserving protection, and each deserving justice. If the crime is murder and the unborn child’s life ends, justice demands a full accounting under the law.” Senator John Kerry (D-MA), who ran against Bush in 2004, voted against the bill. He said: “I have serious concerns about this legislation because the law cannot simultaneously provide that a fetus is a human being and protect the right of the mother to choose to terminate her pregnancy.” Any comments? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1259 "2011-05-15T16:21:19Z")
> [@Hentzau](#): > > I wonder if we might illustrate something by experiment: > > Assumed: > [ul] > [li]You’re a person who is able to lift no more than 150 lbs and carry that weight down six floors of fire escape one time only before becoming exhausted;[/li][li]You’re on the sixth floor of a building with a freezer of viable human embryos, say 500 in all, and a teenage girl who for whatever reason cannot walk. [/li][li]Both the girl and the freezer weigh 150 lbs.;[/li][li]The building is on fire;[/li][li]You can save only one.[/li][/ul] Choose. Will you let the girl die, or the freezer of 500 embryos? > > What is the reason for your choosing the way you do? How about someone answers this question: The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1260 "2011-05-15T16:29:56Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > How about someone answers this question: > > The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? How about you answer mine first? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=64)