# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1261 "2011-05-15T16:32:15Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Any comments? Kerry is wrong. The fetus’ status as a human being or not has no bearing whatsoever on the right of the mother to terminate her pregnancy. It’s a good law. The mother has a right to evict a baby from her body because it’s her body. No one else has that right. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > How about someone answers this question: > > The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? No effective difference, because the age of the fetus has no bearing on its status. A repost of my question which you utterly ignored: > [@Zeriel](#): > > > [@classyladyhp](#): > > > > It is always morally wrong to kill an innocent person. Abortion is the killing of an innocent person. Therefore abortion is wrong. The law should protect the innocent. > > **Okay, so what if we don’t kill it, we just gently remove it from the woman’s uterus and let it do its thing?** > > If that’s “killing it”, that makes “killing” equivalent to “letting it die by inaction” and we’re back to the kidney transplant–and we’re gonna have to rewrite the standards for duty-of-care. > > As a general bit of advice, I’d say you’d do better by stepping back, actually thinking about your various axiomatic beliefs and the logical consequences thereof, and assembling a full list of what you actually believe about the topic. You’ve posted several things that are contradictory or lead to contradictory conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1262 "2011-05-15T16:33:42Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > How about someone answers this question: > > The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? Been following this thread for days, hope you can tolerate my intrusion. Easy: 9 months. Save one person, or two people? The nine month pregnancy, assuming it is a viable one, most likely will result in a baby who will thrive without intensive, invasive, and drastic medical intervention even if delivered immediately following the rescue. Although I’m interested in Your answer to the original scenario as well as your own riff on the dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1263 "2011-05-15T16:35:16Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > repost the question my dearass. See posts 1079 and 1089. ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1264 "2011-05-15T16:41:49Z")
The building is burning…make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1265 "2011-05-15T16:51:27Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > How about someone answers this question: > > The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? Honestly, you should answer someone’s question rather than quote it, ignore it, and ask one of your own. I’m not sure what you think this question will resolve, The choice either way is to leave one pregnant woman to die. The pro choice position is about the woman’s choice , not what I personally think. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1266 "2011-05-15T16:52:37Z")
> [@Hentzau](#): > > The building is burning…make up your mind. Before I answer, how much is a freezer full of frozen embryos worth on the open market? ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1267 "2011-05-15T16:56:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Before I answer, how much is a freezer full of frozen embryos worth on the open market? Quite a bit, depending on how you fence them, I’m sure - but that’s really outside the scope of the little thought experiment. 😉 Oh well. I see that the little green light next to classylady’s name is out - she’s Offline. I suppose it was either that or explain why it was okay to let little Chrissie fricassee rather than permit the destruction of God’s Little Snowflakes. Too bad - I was looking forward to some high moral equivocation. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1268 "2011-05-15T17:14:59Z")
> [@Hentzau](#): > > Quite a bit, depending on how you fence them, I’m sure - but that’s really outside the scope of the little thought experiment. 😉 > > Oh well. I see that the little green light next to classylady’s name is out - she’s Offline. I suppose it was either that or explain why it was okay to let little Chrissie fricassee rather than permit the destruction of God’s Little Snowflakes. Too bad - I was looking forward to some high moral equivocation. I think you posed an interesting question to those who argue sanctity of life vs women’s right to choose about her own body and future. I’ve noticed a persistent inconsistency in the argument offered by anti abortion folks. but to answer the question , I’d have the girl who couldn’t walk hold on to the freezer, and drag them both down 6 flights of stairs. 😉 Girl saved from burning, and I still have a freezer of embryos to fence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1269 "2011-05-15T17:33:03Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > U.S. Federal Law: > Public Law 108-212 “The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004,” … Any comments? Despite the legislation’s name, I see its effect as an aggravating factor if a pregnant woman is assaulted, rather than a specific protection for the fetus, i.e. the assailant is attempting to forcibly end a woman’s pregnancy, possibly up to and including killing her. She’s being victimized specifically because she is pregnant, and as such I tend to lump it in with hate-crime laws that provide for harsher sentences if a victim is chosen specifically for being black or Jewish or whatever. Now how about tackling posts 1079 and 1089? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1270 "2011-05-15T18:41:48Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > It is very dangerous to use the not a person argument to defend abortion. Was that not the same argument to justify the killing of Jews and the oppression of blacks? :rolleyes: Jews and black people have thoughts, feelings, desires, and able to feel pain and suffer. I’m also pretty sure that you could ask them and they’d say they didn’t want to be treated in the ways that they have been. A fetus or embryo has none of these traits, so just the fact that someone once said “Jews aren’t really people” and we’re now saying “embryos aren’t people” doesn’t make them the same. Perhaps more to the point, neither a Jew nor a black person has ever crawled up into my uterus and demanded to live in there for 9 months. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1271 "2011-05-15T18:57:55Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > :rolleyes: Jews and black people have thoughts, feelings, desires, and able to feel pain and suffer. I’m also pretty sure that you could ask them and they’d say they didn’t want to be treated in the ways that they have been. A fetus or embryo has none of these traits, so just the fact that someone once said “Jews aren’t really people” and we’re now saying “embryos aren’t people” doesn’t make them the same. I’ve read through this several times and I must have a glitch in processing it. Did you just make the claim that fetuses don’t have the qualities listed in the first sentence? ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1272 "2011-05-15T19:02:05Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You know perfectly well what I mean. I’ll rephrase it though. A tumor is not human. Do you know of a human tumor? > > Show me an example of a tumor that is a human being. Every tumor that arises from human cells is a human tumor. You have claimed that a tumor is no longer part of the human species, which is absurd, unless you also want to claim that a liver or a pancreas are not part of the human species. Pluck a cell from a human tumor and you’ll find the same 46 chromosomes that you have use to define your human embryo. What distinction do you draw between the two that makes the embryo not only human but also a full person, but denies the same status to the tumor? > [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’ve also never met a tumor that became human. Have you ever heard of a tumor becoming a human? Why should a tumor have to ‘become’ something in order to be classified as human, when an embryo does not have to ‘become’ anything to be afforded the same classification? An embryo in a freezer will never become anything, so are they not human? ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1273 "2011-05-15T19:07:27Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > repost the question my dearass. > [@vivalostwages](#): > > See posts 1079 and 1089. Just to make it easier on **classyladyhp** , here are the posts in question: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Exactly, you have nothing _beyond_ this attempt at spurring outrage. I’m not bothered by your use of the term. As far as I know it’s all you have. > > Heck, for the sake of argument I’ll even agree - abortion is baby-killing. Now convince me abortion should be illegal, assuming you believe that. Tell me how the law will be enforced, what the penalty should be, what you think the consequences will be. Warn me what will happen if abortion continues as is in the U.S., or if restrictions are loosened. Tell what will happen if the million or so aborted fetuses per year in the U.S. are instead delivered and adopted out, then tell me what happens the following year when a million fetuses are delivered and _not_ adopted out, because the demand for adoption was largely satisfied. > > Basically, give me some sign that you’ve thought the issue through beyond “baby-killing.” > [@vivalostwages](#): > > It doesn’t bother me. It is just too simple and doesn’t take everything into consideration: the mother’s health status, the fetus’s condition, the circumstances of its conception, etc. > > Having a DNR and Advance Directive in one’s files (as I do, just as my folks did) allows a medical professional or possibly a family member to “pull the plug,” so to speak, if the patient so chose to have this done. Is that murder? Is it “adult killing”? Some say so, but the law allows for it. It allows for abortion too. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1274 "2011-05-15T19:22:48Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > Every tumor that arises from human cells is a human tumor. You have claimed that a tumor is no longer part of the human species, which is absurd, unless you also want to claim that a liver or a pancreas are not part of the human species. Pluck a cell from a human tumor and you’ll find the same 46 chromosomes that you have use to define your human embryo. What distinction do you draw between the two that makes the embryo not only human but also a full person, but denies the same status to the tumor? > > Why should a tumor have to ‘become’ something in order to be classified as human, when an embryo does not have to ‘become’ anything to be afforded the same classification? An embryo in a freezer will never become anything, so are they not human? That’s it exactly and why the “human being/baby from conception” argument fails. It explains the inconsistencies we find in pro life positions. They like to use the term, but the reality is “potential person”, whether they like it or not and most of them know it. The only difference is that the intention , or the purpose, of an embryo is to become a person, and the purpose of a tumor or other human cells is not {in most cases} That still results in recognizing that a mass of cells is not a person. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1275 "2011-05-15T19:33:34Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I’ve read through this several times and I must have a glitch in processing it. > > Did you just make the claim that fetuses don’t have the qualities listed in the first sentence? 😕 Do you think an embryo or fetus \*can \*have thoughts, feelings, desires, and the ability to feel pain and suffer? I suppose some of those things may be true for a late-term fetus (the pain thing specifically), but not for those in the 1st and 2nd trimester. Since those are the ones that get aborted, those are the ones we’re talking about. Do you have any evidence that a fetus \*does \*possess these traits? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1276 "2011-05-15T20:47:01Z")
Bottom line: As long as blood and organ donation are legally voluntary, so should pregnancy remain. When every person is compelled to give freely parts of their own body to innocent :rolleyes: (or not-so-innocent) recipients, I’ll have a much harder time defending an exception for pregnant women. Until then, I’ll deal with my own moral compass, thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1277 "2011-05-15T20:55:05Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Bottom line: As long as blood and organ donation are legally voluntary, so should pregnancy remain. When every person is compelled to give freely parts of their own body to innocent :rolleyes: (or not-so-innocent) recipients, I’ll have a much harder time defending an exception for pregnant women. > > Until then, I’ll deal with my own moral compass, thankyouverymuch. Succinctly captured the essence of it. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1278 "2011-05-15T21:10:24Z")
I see that **classyladyhp** has only been here a month. Have they posted in any thread but this one? I wonder how the poster found this board. They never did answer my polite request to provide documentation or factual proof of their beliefs. Only a repeat of their belief. **classyladyhp** , I’ll try this. You believe abortion should be illegal. OK, assume you are queen and make the laws and decree the punishments for breaking the law. What would you do to a woman who has an abortion? What about the person who helped perform the operation? Would you have any mercy for them? Don’t forget that Christ had mercy on offenders. Remember the woman\* who was brought before him, who’d committed adultery? By the laws of the time she was deserving of the death penalty, but all he said was for anyone there who _hadn’t_ sinned to cast the first stone. And she was told to leave in peace, and sin no more. Could you do that? - As far back as junior high, when I learned the facts of life, I wondered why the man she’d been with wasn’t in the story as well. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1279 "2011-05-15T21:23:53Z")
[quote=“brossa, post:1272, topic:580935”] \*\*Every tumor that arises from human cells is a human tumor. \*\* [QUOTE] It’s a human tumor not a human. Go out and do a survey and ask 100 people if they think a tumor is a human being. I’m sure 99/100 will say it is not and the 1 person out of the 100 that says a tumor is a human is a moron. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1280 "2011-05-15T21:28:13Z")
So if I can find 99/100 who think abortion is not murder, we’re good then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=65)