# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1281 "2011-05-15T21:29:50Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I see that **classyladyhp** has only been here a month. Have they posted in any thread but this one? I wonder how the poster found this board. > > **classyladyhp** , I’ll try this. You believe abortion should be illegal. OK, assume you are queen and make the laws and decree the punishments for breaking the law. What would you do to a woman who has an abortion? What about the person who helped perform the operation? Would you have any mercy for them? I am not a they I am a she. Why the hell are you calling me a they? Why is how I found this board relevant? I found this board the way many other people how found this board. By using the internet:smack:Yes I have posted in other threads. You can see that under my statistics. **classyladyhp** , I’ll try this. You believe abortion should be illegal. OK, assume you are queen and make the laws and decree the punishments for breaking the law. What would you do to a woman who has an abortion? What about the person who helped perform the operation? Would you have any mercy for them? If abortion is made illegal then I would do the same thing that is done to others who break they law:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1282 "2011-05-15T21:30:46Z")
changed on review ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1283 "2011-05-15T21:32:47Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So if I can find 99/100 who think abortion is not murder, we’re good then? You’re just twisting my words around. Are you the 1 out of 100 who thinks that a tumor is a human? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1284 "2011-05-15T21:35:17Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Bottom line: As long as blood and organ donation are legally voluntary, so should pregnancy remain. When every person is compelled to give freely parts of their own body to innocent :rolleyes: (or not-so-innocent) recipients, I’ll have a much harder time defending an exception for pregnant women. > > Until then, I’ll deal with my own moral compass, thankyouverymuch. People give blood and donate organs out of the goodness of their own hearts. They are under no obligation to do so. The people who donate blood are not the ones who caused the people they are donating blood to need it. Same thing for organs. A woman gets pregnant as a consequence of her actions. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1285 "2011-05-15T21:36:24Z")
classyladyhp, I never assume gender based on username. That’s why I used, or tried to, a gender-neutral term. My username is neutral, and a lot of people have called me “dude”. So, don’t get in a snit because I didn’t call you “she”. And I asked what punishment YOU would decree for abortion, if YOU made it illegal. I’m beginning to think you are acting like a troll, not the righteous person you make yourself out to be. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1286 "2011-05-15T21:37:55Z")
Originally Posted by vivalostwages It doesn’t bother me. It is just too simple and doesn’t take everything into consideration: the mother’s health status, the fetus’s condition, the circumstances of its conception, etc. Having a DNR and Advance Directive in one’s files (as I do, just as my folks did) allows a medical professional or possibly a family member to “pull the plug,” so to speak, if the patient so chose to have this done. Is that murder? Is it “adult killing”? Some say so, but the law allows for it. It allows for abortion too. I assume you are speaking of a living will. The person who requests to have the plug pulled if they go into a coma etc is doing that because they don’t want to be kept alive in that condition. Does the fetus tell it’s mother it’s ok to kill it? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1287 "2011-05-15T21:41:21Z")
Heck, for the sake of argument I’ll even agree - abortion is baby-killing. Now convince me abortion should be illegal, assuming you believe that. Since murder is killing an innocent person and since I believe abortion kills an innocent person then it should be illegal. Tell me how the law will be enforced, what the penalty should be, what you think the consequences will be. The same way the law against murdering is enforced. Warn me what will happen if abortion continues as is in the U.S., or if restrictions are loosened. Tell what will happen if the million or so aborted fetuses per year in the U.S. are instead delivered and adopted out, then tell me what happens the following year when a million fetuses are delivered and not adopted out, because the demand for adoption was largely satisfied. I don’t know I’m not psychic. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1288 "2011-05-15T21:44:36Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > How about someone answers this question: > > The scenario is the same except that. There are two people and you have to choose which one to save. Do you save the woman that is 3 months pregnant or the woman that is 9 months pregnant? What the fuck is this, junior high abortion debate? What next, the old “You just killed Beethoven?” question. Fuck yeah I’d kill Beethoven. You anti-choice assholes never seem to worry about the Marie Curies, Anna Pavlovas, Emma Goldmans, and Elizabeth 1’s who never got a chance to develop their talents because they died due to pregnancy itself, were exhausted by too many pregnancies, or just one unintended pregnancy ruined their lives to the point where all they could do was survive. You seem to think women have no potential, no use at all, because the idea that women can do anything but have babies apparently never occurs to any anti-choicer. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1289 "2011-05-15T21:44:51Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > classyladyhp, I never assume gender based on username. That’s why I used, or tried to, a gender-neutral term. My username is neutral, and a lot of people have called me “dude”. > > So, don’t get in a snit because I didn’t call you “she”. > > And I asked what punishment YOU would decree for abortion, if YOU made it illegal. > > I’m beginning to think you are acting like a troll, not the righteous person you make yourself out to be. Then you could have said he/she. Just because I don’t agree with pro-choicers does not make me a troll. How do I know you’re not a troll trying to get a rise out of me:dubious: If you had looked at my other posts you would know that I was a woman. Don’t try and pretend you didn’t know. If abortion was made illegal because it is considered to be murder then I guess they would have to face the same penalties as murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1290 "2011-05-15T21:46:21Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > If abortion is made illegal then I would do the same thing that is done to others who break they law:smack: That ranges, I understand, from a $5 file to Death Row. Where on this rather broad spectrum do you think abortion sits? If you prefer not to choose, what if abortion was made 100% illegal under all circumstances, but it was a misdemeanor with the penalty permanently set at a $5 fine? Acceptable? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1291 "2011-05-15T21:47:16Z")
> [@margin](#): > > What the fuck is this, junior high abortion debate? What next, the old “You just killed Beethoven?” question. Fuck yeah I’d kill Beethoven. You anti-choice\*\* assholes \*\*never seem to worry about the Marie Curies, Anna Pavlovas, Emma Goldmans, and Elizabeth 1’s who never got a chance to develop their talents because they died due to pregnancy itself, were exhausted by too many pregnancies, or just one unintended pregnancy ruined their lives to the point where all they could do was survive. You seem to think women have no potential, no use at all, because the idea that women can do anything but have babies apparently never occurs to any anti-choicer. Don’t get your knickers in a twist now margarine. It’s pro-lifers BTW. When you guys get called pro…you freak out. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1292 "2011-05-15T21:48:19Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That ranges, I understand, from a $5 file to Death Row. Where on this rather broad spectrum do you think abortion sits? > If you prefer not to choose, what if abortion was made 100% illegal under all circumstances, but it was a misdemeanor with the penalty permanently set at a $5 fine? Acceptable? If not, why not? No they wouldn’t get the death penalty. They’d go to jail and perhaps get some kind of therapy. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1293 "2011-05-15T21:52:53Z")
> [@Hentzau](#): > > I wonder if we might illustrate something by experiment: > > Assumed: > [ul] > [li]You’re a person who is able to lift no more than 150 lbs and carry that weight down six floors of fire escape one time only before becoming exhausted;[/li][li]You’re on the sixth floor of a building with a freezer of viable human embryos, say 500 in all, and a teenage girl who for whatever reason cannot walk. [/li][li]Both the girl and the freezer weigh 150 lbs.;[/li][li]The building is on fire;[/li][li]You can save only one.[/li][/ul] Choose. Will you let the girl die, or the freezer of 500 embryos? > > What is the reason for your choosing the way you do? I’d like to save both but if I had to choose it would be the girl. The embryos could potentially get destroyed/thawed out when the freezer is unplugged:D ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1294 "2011-05-15T22:01:15Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I see that **classyladyhp** has only been here a month. Have they posted in any thread but this one? I wonder how the poster found this board. You should really do something about that paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1295 "2011-05-15T22:06:28Z")
Folks, I’ve emailed **Miller** to ask for this thread to be closed. It’s at his discretion of course, but fingers crossed and all. Seems like a waste of space now really. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1296 "2011-05-15T23:01:55Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > repost the question my dearass. See post #1141 as well. I would really like an answer to these two scenarios–your answer, even though I can predict what it may be. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1297 "2011-05-15T23:20:48Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > I’ve read through this several times and I must have a glitch in processing it. > > Did you just make the claim that fetuses don’t have the qualities listed in the first sentence? Of course! I’ll make the claim too. I don’t understand why anti-abortion people keep missing out on key points of the issue over and over again. It’s taking countless pages before classylady even mentioned that there may be a difference between human cells, human tissue and a person. And you just now are admitting a glitch in your processing. I already posted a link to this thread that addresses this very issue. Fetuses are developmentally incapable of thoughts, feelings, desires, feeling pain or suffering. At least until the third trimester. That’s a conservative estimate. You need a cerebral cortex to even process signals in the nervous system. That doesn’t even start to develop until late second trimester. Several people have mentioned this over and over again. You people are expecting a woman to give up a very fundamental right, to control her own body, to save what is reasonable to call a non-person. Even more, you are giving an embryo or fetus privileges that you wouldn’t even give a baby. Several people have already discussed that people cannot be forced to give bodily substances to any person even, even a relative. Therefore, the unborn is given sacred, superhuman status. Why? Here’s the cite on the study: > [@](#): > > Evidence Acquisition Systematic search of PubMed for English-language articles focusing on human studies related to fetal pain, anesthesia, and analgesia. Included articles studied fetuses of less than 30 weeks’ gestational age or specifically addressed fetal pain perception or nociception. Articles were reviewed for additional references. The search was performed without date limitations and was current as of June 6, 2005. > > Evidence Synthesis Pain perception requires conscious recognition or awareness of a noxious stimulus. Neither withdrawal reflexes nor hormonal stress responses to invasive procedures prove the existence of fetal pain, because they can be elicited by nonpainful stimuli and occur without conscious cortical processing. Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks. For fetal surgery, women may receive general anesthesia and/or analgesics intended for placental transfer, and parenteral opioids may be administered to the fetus under direct or sonographic visualization. In these circumstances, administration of anesthesia and analgesia serves purposes unrelated to reduction of fetal pain, including inhibition of fetal movement, prevention of fetal hormonal stress responses, and induction of uterine atony. > > Conclusions Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures. [http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/8/947.long](http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/8/947.long) ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1298 "2011-05-15T23:23:17Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’d like to save both but if I had to choose it would be the girl. The embryos could potentially get destroyed/thawed out when the freezer is unplugged:D And that doesn’t tell you anything at all about your stance? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1299 "2011-05-15T23:49:13Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > People give blood and donate organs out of the goodness of their own hearts. They are under no obligation to do so. The people who donate blood are not the ones who caused the people they are donating blood to need it. Same thing for organs. > A woman gets pregnant as a consequence of her actions. Except that pregnancy is not necessarily an intended result of her actions, and in some cases, not even a result of \*her \*actions, but those of someone else. Are you seriously suggesting that no person who does not intend to become a parent should have sexual intercourse…ever? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1300 "2011-05-16T00:07:18Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Except that pregnancy is not necessarily an intended result of her actions, and in some cases, not even a result of \*her \*actions, but those of someone else. Are you seriously suggesting that no person who does not intend to become a parent should have sexual intercourse…ever? No. That’s not what I’m saying. They should realize that sex may lead to pregnancy and that sometimes contraception doesn’t work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=66)