# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1541 "2011-05-17T22:36:00Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You’ve got nothing else in your head but hot air so I forgive you for the incredibly rude post:rolleyes: Ah, back to insulting people, are we? > [@](#): > > Sentience is to be self-aware. Many people on this thread have stated that it is an integral part of being a person. They argue that the fetus is not sentient and therefore not a person. As a consequence the fetus does not have the same right as a person. > A newborn is not sentient. Therefore it deos not have the same right either so you must then support infanticide. A mother has a choice to kill her newborn then. Do you realize how stupid that is?Got it?:rolleyes: And this might be meaningful if the entire abortion debate rested on the question of whether or not things were sentient. The pro-choice argument is not “anything that I don’t like I can kill! Whee!” no matter how much you’d like it to be. It generally rests on the idea that the fetus does not have rights equal to the mother but _even if it did_, it is not appropriate to force somebody to sustain another being with their own body. Once the newborn is out of the mother, you are no longer dealing with something that is entirely dependent on someone else’s body to sustain it, whether or not that person wants to share their body in that way. Also, sentience can include the ability to feel pleasure and pain, and I’m pretty sure newborns can do that. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1542 "2011-05-17T22:37:49Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I didn’t say I don’t know what it means. I meant it is the sort of word people would ridicule you for using in day to day life. What? Are you surrounded with people so dumb that ‘flippant’ qualifies as a big word or something? It’s a perfectly reasonable word for adults with normal vocabularies to use. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1543 "2011-05-17T22:38:02Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I didn’t say I don’t know what it means. I meant it is the sort of word people would ridicule you for using in day to day life. Happily, not the people I hang out with. They are nice people and rarely, if ever, ridicule people. Especially for having, gasp, something more than a basic vocabulary. What a weird thing to pick on someone for. What an angry, small-minded person you seem to be. I hope you are different in real life, for the sake of those around you. ETA: I have friends from the entire political and religious spectrum, and for the most part we get along really well and can discuss just about anything- this includes clergy as well. The reason we can is because we all get the common truth that ethical issues are tricky and complex and really good people can come to differing opinions. As long as we can trust that we each are coming from a sincere place, we can differ and respect and learn from each other. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1544 "2011-05-17T22:44:59Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, actually, most of my time has been spent pointing out that the arguments pro-choicers use are either not logically consistent, or they lead to some rather strange and unnerving conclusions. Plus, I can’t say I too much of care about those “other” facets of the debate, since most of them don’t address the “rightness” or “wrongness” of abortion. If abortion is wrong, very few of those things matter (and the things which do matter account for, like, 6% of all abortions). So in your mind only the question of personhood is relevant to the abortion debate? The fact that the embryo is living inside another person and surviving only because the mother is providing for it with her own body is meaningless to you? To my mind the question of what exactly makes a person a person is an interesting one, but nothing, no matter how much of a person it is, gets to set up camp and live in my uterus against my will. Why is that so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1545 "2011-05-17T22:45:14Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Sentience is to be self-aware. Many people on this thread have stated that it is an integral part of being a person. They argue that the fetus is not sentient and therefore not a person. As a consequence the fetus does not have the same right as a person. > A newborn is not sentient. Therefore it deos not have the same right either so you must then support infanticide. A mother has a choice to kill her newborn then. Do you realize how stupid that is?Got it?:rolleyes: Sentience does not mean self-aware. I don’t think anyone in this thread suggested it means self-aware. Sentience is simply a level of consciousness that allows a creature to perceive their environment. It is a key element when people discuss the ability to suffer. Newborns can suffer. It’s pretty much accepted that most mammals can suffer. Some even suggest that squids may be able to suffer. Buddhists think all animals are sentient. Anyway, it requires higher cognitive centers such as a cerebral cortex. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1546 "2011-05-17T22:47:13Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Babies make people happy. More babies means happier people. Well, that’s not always true. Not even close \ > [@](#): > > Oh? So what are you? I am a human. Prior to birth, I was a fetus. > [@](#): > > If I were to lay in front of you twenty pictures of twenty different embryos, you wouldn’t be able to pick out the human. Which, I very much hope, you are well aware is not the same thing as saying they all look alike. > [@](#): > > Because logic, or the lack thereof, doesn’t exist in a bubble. Logic has nothing to do with what you are posting. > [@](#): > > You’re the only one who’s mentioned personal beliefs. It is your personal belief that it is a human at conception. It is also your personal belief that science agrees with you. You may not want to call them that, but they aren’t facts. > [@](#): > > It seems to be doing more to “help the cause” than whatever it is pro-choicers do (or don’t do). It just makes you look like a flake or a troll. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1547 "2011-05-17T22:56:27Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > How do you not realize that you just supported what **cosmosdan** just said? WTF? I looked at that and decided that unless I’m _really_ bored, there doesn’t seem to be any point in responding to **OMG**. (I know I just did, but I hadn’t read this yet… ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1548 "2011-05-17T23:08:21Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Sentience is to be self-aware. [Sentient: having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sentient) ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1549 "2011-05-17T23:14:47Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > :rolleyes: > It’s a legitimate question which you can’t answer. Hello pot. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1550 "2011-05-17T23:16:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I looked at that and decided that unless I’m _really_ bored, there doesn’t seem to be any point in responding to **OMG**. You can come sit by me, **curlcoat**. It was a valiant effort. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1551 "2011-05-17T23:26:40Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Hello pot. Hi kettle:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1552 "2011-05-17T23:28:50Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > **They are nice people and rarely, if ever, ridicule people** So what you’re saying then is that they are NOTHING like you. You’re a snob. Now accept that and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1553 "2011-05-17T23:33:46Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > So in your mind only the question of personhood is relevant to the abortion debate? The fact that the embryo is living inside another person and surviving only because the mother is providing for it with her own body is meaningless to you? > > To my mind the question of what exactly makes a person a person is an interesting one, but nothing, no matter how much of a person it is, gets to set up camp and live in my uterus against my will. Why is that so hard to understand? Yes, and don’t do the deed if you can’t handle the prospect of becoming pregnant. A radical notion, I know. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Well, that’s not always true. Not even close. It’s not? > [@](#): > > I am a human. Prior to birth, I was a fetus. I said this before, but fetus denotes a stage of development. Human is a species. A fetus has to belong to some species. If the two parents are human, then the fetus must also be human, for the law of biogenesis states that organisms can only come together to produce members of the same species. Does it hurt you to know that you couldn’t pass a 6th grade biology test if your life depended on it? When you respond, do you get this little tingly sensation in the upper portion of your head? > [@](#): > > Logic has nothing to do with what you are posting. Logic has everything to do with what I’m posting. Just because you’re pro-choice and unable to understand facts and logic, doesn’t mean my posts are devoid of them. > [@](#): > > It is your personal belief that it is a human at conception. It is also your personal belief that science agrees with you. You may not want to call them that, but they aren’t facts. You know, as the saying goes, facts are stubborn things. Whatever may be your wishes, your inclinations, or the dictates of your passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. You can continue to assert that the the idea that human beings begin their lives at conception. I’ll continue to throw out the facts, which you will continue to throw out. Oh, and just because I can: > [@](#): > > To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion…it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception. -[Dr. Jerome Lejeune](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Lejeune) > [@](#): > > It just makes you look like a flake or a troll. Irony, as is said, is wasted on the stupid. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1554 "2011-05-17T23:34:22Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > So what you’re saying then is that they are NOTHING like you. > You’re a snob. Now accept that and move on. OK- so that made me laugh. Thank you- I’ve had a hell of a day and needed that. Heh. Still funny. I’m a snob because I use the word flippant and I happen to have nice friends who somehow put up with pretentious old me. Love it! It’s just so absurd! ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1555 "2011-05-17T23:35:59Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > OK- so that made me laugh. Thank you- I’ve had a hell of a day and needed that. > > Heh. Still funny. I’m glad that made you laugh. Signed classylady, The angry, small-minded fetus “cough” person. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1556 "2011-05-17T23:39:43Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > -[Dr. Jerome Lejeune](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_Lejeune) There’s no point trying to reason with them. They have to be right all the time. I quoted Lejeune myself before and an angry mob of replies ensued. He was a pediatrician and a geneticist. I think I`ll trust his definiton. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1557 "2011-05-17T23:45:45Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > There’s no point trying to reason with them. They have to be right all the time. I quoted Lejeune myself before and an angry mob of replies ensued. > He was a pediatrician and a geneticist. I think I`ll trust his definiton. I’m sure if they wanted to, they could find some scientist to disagree-- like PZ Meyers. Though I dunno’ who they think they’re kidding. As I said, we’ve known for at least 40 years that the unborn at all gestational ages are humans. Hell, even looking at the text of Roe v. Wade lets you know that even as far back as 1857, scientists knew this. It’s amazing how pro-choicers can be more than 154 years behind the times. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1558 "2011-05-17T23:47:31Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m sure if they wanted to, they could find some scientist to disagree-- like PZ Meyers. Though I dunno’ who they think they’re kidding. As I said, we’ve known for at least 40 years that the unborn at all gestational ages are humans. Hell, even looking at the text of Roe v. Wade lets you know that even as far back as 1857, scientists knew this. It’s amazing how pro-choicers can be more than 154 years behind the times. They would say the earth was flat if that would keep abortion legal. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1559 "2011-05-17T23:49:15Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > You can come sit by me, **curlcoat**. It was a valiant effort. 😃 Yeah, I was starting to get suspicious before that post, but that one just sealed the deal. Interesting insight to how some of them think tho! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1560 "2011-05-17T23:50:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > 😃 > > Yeah, I was starting to get suspicious before that post, but that one just sealed the deal. Interesting insight to how some of them think tho! Yes, how they cherry-pick evidence to support their own political and misguided agendas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=79)