# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1621 "2011-05-18T17:50:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you know what the fallacy of _petitio principii_ is? I suppose some consider it necessary to establish that more personal liberty is better than less personal liberty, but for others this is taken as true by default and the argument redundant. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1622 "2011-05-18T17:50:44Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You act like you’re the first women to ever carry a baby or give birth or have an episiotomy. The epidural is just a fucking needle. It hurts for a minute and then it’s done. > Been there sone that. Cry me a river. Seriously. I can understand needing someone to move in and help for a month if you had twins, triplets etc. Newborns basically sleep a lot during the first 2 weeks of life. > You’re being melodramatic just because you’re pro-choice. Yeah I should have been a prolifer. Then I can give constant self indulgent, self congratulatory idiotic speeches about the glories of fertilized eggs, the sanctity of ectopic pregnancies and the fabulousness that is the zygote. Better yet accuse anyone who disagrees with me of killing Beethoven and acting like Hitler. Your newborns may have slept a lot. Mine do not. **Beniamino** , A handnail is an inconvenience. A broken umbrella is an inconvenience. A pregnancy with nine months of weight gain and other assorted bad physical symptoms is nothing of the sort. Your side can just STFU when you imply otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1623 "2011-05-18T17:58:36Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You’re stupid. Thanks for the armchair diagnosis imbecile. > You’re suffering from the delusion that you make any sense. Well bless your heart! You’re so welcome! I’m sure that you mean well. When you manage to get your anger under control, **Czarcasm** had an excellent question: When does a fertilized egg become a human being, **classladyhp**? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1624 "2011-05-18T18:09:33Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > \*Heavenly Father, > > …Therefore, allow me today, Father, > to adopt spiritually an unborn child > and to offer my prayers, works, > joys and sufferings for that little one, > so that child will be able to be born and live > for Thy greater honor and glory. … > \* And of course, by “adopting spiritually”, I mean that I will have no responsibility for the health of the mother or the baby that will be born in any way, especially financially. Once the child is born, my responsibilities end, and I will be free to castigate the mother as a whore, and to promote cutting of social services that would benefit the child. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1625 "2011-05-18T18:10:41Z")
I’m pretty sure anyone who refers to pregnancy as an “inconvenience” is unfamiliar with the fun and sunshine and sprinkles that is pregnancy-related death. So, when _does_ a fertilized egg become a human? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1626 "2011-05-18T18:13:20Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Yeah I should have been a prolifer. > > Then I can give constant self indulgent, self congratulatory idiotic speeches about the glories of fertilized eggs,\*\* the sanctity of ectopic pregnancies \*\*and the fabulousness that is the zygote. Better yet accuse anyone who disagrees with me of killing Beethoven and acting like Hitler. > > Your newborns may have slept a lot. Mine do not. > > **Beniamino** , > > A handnail is an inconvenience. A broken umbrella is an inconvenience. A pregnancy with nine months of weight gain and other assorted bad physical symptoms is nothing of the sort. Your side can just STFU when you imply otherwise. Hey buddy. Don’t put words in my mouth. Read the thread next time and you’ll see that I said ectopic pregnancies need to be aborted because neither the mother nor the fetus will survive. You’re making a fool of yourself with the melodrama. Pretty much ALL newborns sleep a lot in the first week or so. After the first 1-2 weeks they start sleeping less and then colic starts for some around 3 weeks or so. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1627 "2011-05-18T18:14:08Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Perhaps because the justice system doesn’t work that way. This is not Iran. We don’t do eye for an eye justice. The person in question would be charged with attempted murder for that action and murder if the person dies. > You have no point. So, being proximately responsible for a person’s condition DOES require you to give of your own body to save their life, and DOESN’T require you to give of your own body to save their life, because all persons have full and equal rights. I see. Perfectly clear. And oh so logical. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1628 "2011-05-18T18:14:24Z")
[quote=“Euphonious\_Polemic, post:1623, topic:580935”] Well bless your heart! You’re so welcome! I’m sure that you mean well. Are you from the South or something? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1629 "2011-05-18T18:16:45Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > I’m pretty sure anyone who refers to pregnancy as an “inconvenience” is unfamiliar with the fun and sunshine and sprinkles that is pregnancy-related death. > > So, when _does_ a fertilized egg become a human? > **[Human fertilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization)** > > Human fertilization is the union of an egg and sperm, occurring primarily in the ampulla of the fallopian tube. The result of this union leads to the production of a fertilized egg called a zygote, initiating embryonic development. Scientists discovered the dynamics of human fertilization in the 19th century. > The process of fertilization involves a sperm fusing with an ovum. The most common sequence begins with ejaculation during copulation, follows with ovulation, and finishes with fertilizatio... Wait I think this link is more geared towards your level: > **[Female Reproductive System](https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/female-reproductive-system.html)** > > The female reproductive system is made up of the parts inside and outside a female’s body that help make a baby. Learn about them and how they work. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1630 "2011-05-18T18:20:12Z")
Oh by the way, **Czarcasm** had an excellent question: When does a fertilized egg become a human being, **classladyhp**? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1631 "2011-05-18T18:22:12Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So, being proximately responsible for a person’s condition DOES require you to give of your own body to save their life, and DOESN’T require you to give of your own body to save their life, because all persons have full and equal rights. > > I see. Perfectly clear. And oh so logical. 😃 You’re not getting it are you? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1632 "2011-05-18T18:29:10Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Hey buddy. Don’t put words in my mouth. Read the thread next time and you’ll see that I said ectopic pregnancies need to be aborted because neither the mother nor the fetus will survive. You’re making a fool of yourself with the melodrama. In fairness, you’ve asserted so many different beliefs and rationales that we could practically start a page on Wikipedia entitled “Things \*\*classyladyhp \*\*has asserted” and it’d hit the 50th percentile for length. > [@](#): > > Pretty much ALL newborns sleep a lot in the first week or so. After the first 1-2 weeks they start sleeping less and then colic starts for some around 3 weeks or so. [The total amount of sleep your new baby will have in a 24 hour period will vary, ranging from 8 - 18 hours.](http://www.birth.com.au/Getting-your-baby-to-sleep/Normal-sleep-and-waking-variations) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1633 "2011-05-18T18:30:27Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > You’re not getting it are you? I am repeating your own assertions, and assembling them into contradictory statements. That’s all there is to it. Perhaps if you’d take my advice from multiple pages ago, and actually bother to think through your beliefs before you fire off a one-liner… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1634 "2011-05-18T18:35:20Z")
> [@heatmiserfl](#): > > FINALLY! Wait. No! You were doing so well there. Really. Quite well. I thought, “Hey, he finally, for once, considered the argument.” You laid out the problem statement nicely and then attempted to deflect the argument in the very last sentence. > > If you care about us understanding your viewpoint, this is where the debate to the bodily integrity issue has to go. You can say, **"I understand that we do not force people to submit to donating their bodily substances or have other sorts of invasion of their person to save another person’s life. I think pregnancy is a special case. I think an embryo/fetus has more compelling “right to life” than others (or a pregnant woman has less rights than others), because [insert reason here].**" At least the debate with you, for once, would not be from a strawman argument and we could finally understand your position. > . I think this is an excellent summation of the point we’re trying to get at. IMO, in order for a discussion to be helpful and promote understanding we have to define the terms and terminology, and clarify the relevant points. I think both sides of the argument are guilty of some bad terminology which may be a result of a lack of communication as well as emotions standing in the way. So, to recap a few points. It’s inaccurate for pro choice supporters to claim a zygote or embryo, or early stage fetus is not a human. It is genetically fully human, and recognized by science as such. From conception, it is recognized by science as the early stage of a human life , an individual human being. That’s factual. Can we agree on that? It’s also inaccurate for pro life supporters to use the emotionally charged terms of baby killers , slaughtering innocents and such. Even if you truly FEEL that way, it doesn’t move the discussion forward. We’ve managed to have a lengthy discussion without much mention of religion, which IMO, is a plus. If we’re going to discuss life being sacred , or the sanctity of life , let’s do it from a philosophical view and try to apply the term uniformly. I think \*\*OMG \*\* has made the point that bodily autonomy is not absolute, although it is far from an insignificant factor concerning this issue. That being the case I think the point I quoted above is significant. What are the issues of justice and human rights, in this issue, and the practical real life consequences of the available choices before us. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1635 "2011-05-18T19:27:37Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I snipped all the earlier stuff so I could just respond to it in one space. You want to play this game? All right. I’ll play this stupid game, if only to demonstrate how completely and utterly retarded it is. In essence, your argument boils down to two basic premises; (1) everyone has the right to decide for themselves personhood and act according and (2) it’s wrong to force someone to adhere to a definition of personhood which is not necessarily their own. Okay. Fine. Whatever. Let’s roll with it. I think the discussion would move forward a lot better and be more productive if we could do away with much of this. You mentioned that pro choice supporters come off as thinking they are intellectually superior to pro choice supporters. I think that’s true in a lot of cases but perhaps you can understand how religious arguments and the term baby killers prompts that kind of response. You’ve established you’re capable of having a fact based intelligent discussion on the issue. Perhaps you’ve vented enough that you can leave out the unnecessary and unhelpful condescension and snark so we can deal with the relevant points. > [@](#): > > You see, any idiot can come up with a definition of personhood. Why should the definitions pro-choicers construct be used as the standard? Why not use the one I can construct? Nobody is trying to legally force their definition on you. That’s the relevant difference. > [@](#): > > Why not use the one the aforementioned women constructed? The fact is that pro-choicers use personhood as a manner by which to define some segment of the population out of rights (in this case the unborn), arguing that everyone is entitled to their own, personal beliefs, but they will NOT extend the same courtesy to individuals who definition of personhood would exclude individuals that the pro-choicer’s definition of personhood would. Go figure! It’s a question that society must deal with legally and philosophically. We have to draw certain lines and abide by them together. In areas where the lines are not clear, allowing people the choice is one way of handling it. Insisting that pro choice removes the rights of a segment of the population inaccurate and needs to be left out of the discussion. It’s your opinion, and no more. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1636 "2011-05-18T19:48:17Z")
> [@Beniamino](#): > > Nobody seems to understand this. And this is why we’ve been talking _ **past** _ one another for the last 30 or so pages. > > You have to first settle the question of whether and when a person is a person deserving of protection under the law. > > If the entity-to-be-aborted is not deserving of protection under the law, the question is settled – it’s the woman’s body, she can do what she pleases. > > If the entity-to-be-aborted is deserving of protection under the law, then we must “balance” the death of that entity against the woman’s inconvenience of pregnancy (leaving aside for the moment “at-risk” pregnancies). It’s not really that simple. Even if we establish that an embryo is deserving of some protection we’re faced with a legal and moral judgement about society’s right to force an individual to physically bear another individual. It’s been pointed out over and over, that we don’t do that. Nobody can legally require you , under threat of some punishment, to give your blood and body to another. Is that a door you want to open, that under the umbrella of what’s morally correct the government can take you to a hospital and use your body to aide another , even against your will? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1637 "2011-05-18T20:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by\*\* Omg a Black Conservative \*\* > As to what I meant, exactly what I said. Pro-choice is a misnomer. It’s really pro-abortion. Another complete falsehood that needs to be eliminated from the discussion. You’re obviously an intelligent person but I don’t see your intelligence reflected in this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1638 "2011-05-18T20:42:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Omg a Black Conservative \*\* > Actually, no. If that individual is only in your house because you dragged them there, and they cannot leave because of something you did to him/her, then your right to expel them is rather limited. You cannot place an individual is a precarious circumstance where they are dependent on you (without them explicitly agreeing to it, mind you) and then argue that you have some right to not be impeded upon by that individual. It’s ridiculous and would require a hell of a lot of mental effort to try to justify. Well, that is, unless you’re going to argue that the other individual has no rights, which is quite convenient for pro-choicers. I think **Bryan** has made an excellent argument for his case, {if I understand it correctly} that even if we did designate an embryo as a person due equal consideration under the law, there is no law to force one person to biologically support another. I’m not sure we can find an accurate analogy but I’ll play. Let’s say I take my elderly father into my home, and as his health fails quickly, the burden on me, and my resources, is more than I’m willing to bear.After all I have my own future and my own family to be responsible for. He needs a transfusion from me on a regular basis and it’s affecting my ability to work. The down side is that there is nobody else to care for him. Is there, or should there be, a law or moral obligation, for me to deplete my resources and put my life and health at risk for him, or should I have the right to choose for the sake of my own life, over his? Is there any legal precedent that compels me continue to care and support his life? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1639 "2011-05-18T21:12:01Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Hey buddy. Don’t put words in my mouth. Read the thread next time and you’ll see that I said ectopic pregnancies need to be aborted because neither the mother nor the fetus will survive. You’re making a fool of yourself with the melodrama. > Pretty much ALL newborns sleep a lot in the first week or so. After the first 1-2 weeks they start sleeping less and then colic starts for some around 3 weeks or so. You’re not the board’s only prolife nutter. :rolleyes: You and your ilk need to stop pretending that pregnancy and newborn care are minor inconveniences. You look like nitwits when you do that. Women don’t have abortions because they’re selfish bitches who want to kill babies. Many have them because they really do think that babies are better off born when a woman is truly ready to be mom. Most rational people understand that raising babies and children is an intensely demanding activity that should be entered into under the best possible circumstances and not just because the birth control failed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1640 "2011-05-18T21:12:50Z")
**A fetus starts out as a single, fertilized cell and over 40 weeks developes into a baby. There is no point at which a definitive line can be drawn to say “before this point this not a baby” and “after this point this is a baby”, just as in this statement there is no point you can definitively the color of the text has changed from purple to blue. Does this mean the color was blue from the start?** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=83)