# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 94
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1861 "2011-05-20T01:47:00Z")
Lol, I’d forgotten what I’d set my location as. It is a good place to be, though, away from the appendix and that whore uterus. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1862 "2011-05-20T01:50:13Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Update on the original OP. > > [Seems that the Right-to-Lifers have lost this round.](http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/antiabortion-camera-ditched/2168446.aspx) > > 😃 Bravi, bravi, bravissimi! This is what matters–that assholes cannot intimidate others. Key quote from the article: > [@](#): > > Phil Murphy argued in front of the clinic with the protesters, asking them if they had a solution to “girls that come here and are coerced into getting an abortion”. Maybe that’s our \*\*OMG \*\*in the flesh? He sure sounds worried about the dread pro-abortion forces to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1863 "2011-05-20T02:01:30Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > No, that’s old. [She had another one](http://www.jillstanek.com/2011/04/porn-star-aborting-5th-baby-2nd-this-year/). Would you be okay with a law that says a woman can have four abortions but need a permit for the fifth? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1864 "2011-05-20T02:01:45Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Who cares? I care. Surely, you would argue that a woman who has 15 abortions in 16 years, or 4 or 5 abortions before she is eighteen, or even half of all abortions per year being repeat abortions to be a very bad thing, yes? Sure. It’s very irresponsible behaviour, but that doesn’t make her medical decisions my business. To me, pro-lifer is a label that means one opposes abortion, full stop. That’s why the more strident ones shoot the doctors or try to burn down the clinics. So you think some stranger you read about is very, very bad. Fine. You think she’s in the wrong. That is no argument for outlawing abortion, because her medical decisions are no more your business than those of someone of whose behaviour you approve. You can sniff and let forth a “Well! I never!” at your examples up there if you want, that’s up to you, but abortion should still be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1865 "2011-05-20T02:01:46Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Again, anyone who claims that abortion isn’t a decision that women take cavalierly (sp?) is living in a world entirely of their own fashioning. Are you seriously claiming that the decision to have an abortion is always a casual decision, akin to putting ketchup or mustard on a sandwich? Either you have no clue what the word [_cavalier_](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cavalier) means or you’re beyond ignorant on this subject. I know someone who was raped and got pregnant as a result of that rape. Her decision to have or not have an abortion was, according to her, almost as traumatic as the rape. The event that she said was worse than the rape was when she went to her country’s embassy to report the child’s birth–the consular agents there berated her for, get this, not marrying the man who raped her so “the child can grow up with her real father.” No, abortion is not always a cavalier decision. While I don’t doubt that there very well may be some women who initially think that way, I find it incredibly hard to believe that such a procedure would remain that for them very long after one abortion. And for those women who have had to undergo the procedure due to what even their own faith considers “exceptions to the rule,” there is still a lot of emotional trauma involved. So, tell us the truth here: do you know what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1866 "2011-05-20T03:00:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Again, anyone who claims that abortion isn’t a decision that women take cavalierly (sp?) is living in a world entirely of their own fashioning. Abortion is the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases is not a decision the mother makes cavalierly. And if I were living in a world entirely of my own fashioning, you wouldn’t be in it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1867 "2011-05-20T03:33:34Z")
Does it matter if the decision to get an abortion is a harried or casual one? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1868 "2011-05-20T03:51:50Z")
No. The issue came up in a tangentially related way- and OMG made it a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1869 "2011-05-20T03:55:01Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > No. The issue came up in a tangentially related way- and OMG made it a big deal. Yeah, he does that, doesn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1870 "2011-05-20T06:56:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Aside from that being false, a good portion of women don’t even agonize over having an abortion. CIte? Beyond proving that this is so, you’ll need to explain why it’s meaningful? People use their rights in order to do many things that others find distasteful and even immoral every day, but that doesn’t translate into a reason to restrict those rights. Free speech turns into salacious smear biographies in print and on television. Free association allows people to hang out with the Klan. The right to privacy and self-determination allows people to have medical procedures of all sorts without having to explain themselves to other people. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1871 "2011-05-20T11:03:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Does it matter if the decision to get an abortion is a harried or casual one? No. Painting all women either one way or the other is just foolish. It seems likely that the process of making that decision varies from person to person. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1872 "2011-05-20T12:02:26Z")
**OMGABC** Do you believe abortion may be justified to save the life of the woman? If so, would you like to quantify the level of risk to her life at which point abortion is morally justifiable? Would you care to give evidence to support this opinion? **CLHP** hasn’t cared to offer an opinion thus far, and I wouldn’t want to think you were holding back because the question hadn’t been directly put to you. I’m looking for something like this from you: “Abortion is morally justifiable when the risk to the woman’s life if the pregnancy continues is \_\_% or greater. I believe \_\_\_% is the correct level of risk because of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” Please get back to me with a response. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1873 "2011-05-20T13:56:17Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Show me where I argued the meaning of choice. I want page number and post number. Like, nao, please. I can only guess at the word games ahead. You’ve already demonstrated that you’re reluctant or incapable of admitting a mistake or that you’re incorrect. I’ll play along for a while. You’re making your claim that pro abortion is an accurate or even better term. page 34 post 1666, **you said** > [@](#): > > I meant exactly what I said. Choice is a misnomer, because it assumes that the two choices (to give birth or to have an abortion) are qualitatively similar and and equal in their outcomes. They aren’t, least because one of those situation results in a live baby and the other a dead baby. The correct term, therefore, is pro-abortion, because abortion is the action you support, much like pro-lifers carry around the anti-abortion label, because abortion is the action we oppose. It’s quite simple, really. \*\*to which I responded \*\* "You’re wrong. The term choice assumes nothing about the choices being equal in any way. You inserted that in your imagination. Not only that, since you liked to mention the technicalities of science earlier, one choice does not result in a dead baby. What pro choice indicates is that concerning this issue, pro choice supporters consider the individuals choice about their body to be the primary consideration. That is demonstrated by supporting full term or termination of a pregnancy. " and then \*\*you responded \*\* page 34 #1682 > [@](#): > > **Choices are only choices because it’s assumed that there’s no qualitative differences between the two things being chosen**. For example, the choice to eat macaroni or lasagna, the choice to wear red or blue or even the choice to watch TV or go to sleep. That is, these choices have minimal, if any, effect on others. They effect on your. “Choices” which negatively affect another individual, however, are not “choices”, because one is typically disallowed from choosing them. No one, for example, says that you have a choice between working for your money and mugging people for you money precisely because those two activities are qualitatively different. Sure, in the end, you get money, but one has an undeniable negative impact on another, and therefore is not allowed. emphasis mine. To which **I responded** "We’ve already given several examples in this thread where people are allowed to make choices which have a great negative impact on others and are allowed. Can I choose to not give my blood in a life saving transfusion? A kidney, bone marrow? Can a businessman decide to close a factory and put hundreds of people out of work, with no pay or benefits. Your argument obviously fails with just a little thought. " on page 34 post #1700 **you comment** to Bryan > [@](#): > > I said nothing about equal outcomes or the two choices being similar. I said, to play semantics, that choice is a misnomer because, as it’s used in abortion, it assumes the two choices are qualitatively similar or equal in this outcomes. note that you include, “as it is used in abortion” If that’s your qualifier, fine. We could have saved a lot of time if you had clarified that up front rather than use such mundane irrelevant examples. Even with that qualifier you’re dead wrong. page 36 #1701 you continued to play games > [@](#): > > You know, you would have had a “Gotcha!” moment if I would have said that choices which negatively affected someone were never allowed, instead of saying that choices which negatively impact someone else are typically disallowed. I mean, really. I guess I’m just typing out for my own amusement or something. A lot of word games when you could take one sentence to be specific and clarify. in the same post you say > [@](#): > > Choices have effects and, in the case of abortion, the choice you make has a disproportionate effect on others. You discount those effects, however, and choose to focus solely on the one doing the chosing. By focusing on the one doing the choosing, you treat the outcomes of that choice to be qualitatively equal. If you did not, then one of those choices would not be considered to be a choice at all. Here’s the crux of your error. You assume what’s in the hearts and minds of those choosing and those supporting women’s choice. You seem to be doing this by also assuming your own moral perception of abortion {the killing of a baby} is the correct one. Maybe that explains your questions about the nature of murder. What a convoluted mess to get to a very simple point. If everyone saw abortion as murdering babies it wouldn’t be allowed. Well duh, no kidding. It’s also obvious that not everyone sees it that way. That doesn’t lead to the conclusion that pro choice supporters see the choices as qualitatively the same, or that pro abortion is an accurate term. It was a convoluted mess for you to be continuously wrong. in the same post **you** offer this nonsense > [@](#): > > As I pointed out, the only real difference between a pro-lifer and a pro-choicer are their views on abortion. One says no, one says okay. Therefore, we can just cut to the chase and reference them as anti-abortion and pro-abortion, respectively. You know, it’s funny how most pro-lifers will revel in the anti-abortion moniker, but most pro-choicers shudder in contempt at being labeled pro-abortion. No, that isn’t the only difference. Clearly the issue is much more complex than that. Of the elements involved in the abortion issue , the women, the embryo or fetus, and the morality and rights involved, human life, it’s stages, and potential, pro choice supporters have decided that allowing the woman to choose is of primary importance. That’s why pro choice is the correct term, and pro abortion is incorrect, regardless of all the word games you’ve played. I’ll save the rest of your post for a separate response. You have the ability to engage in a fact based discussion on the subject that could help clarify the issue, dispel some common misunderstandings, and bad info, and define terms more accurately. Instead you muddy the water with a bunch of frivolous semantic acrobatics. Your choice, but to bad, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![heatmiserfl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df705f/32.png) [@heatmiserfl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heatmiserfl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1874 "2011-05-20T14:13:58Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Both my pregnancies were dangerous for me- seriously dangerous. My second pregnancy we had a huge scare that our child had serious genetic defects and it took weeks before the results indicating everything was fine came back. We had plans thought out for every contingency- what we’d do if it was Down Syndrome, what we do if it was cystic fibrosis, what we’d do if it was indeterminate genetic abnormalities. Each was a possibility. And who knows what we would really decide if the results were bad. > > With up most gratitude everything was fine and I had my beautiful daughter, who next week will have her Bat Mitzvah and I love her so much. That’s great to know, but what a scare. I can’t imagine going through that. Someone else ( **Lynn**?) mentioned pre-eclampsia which is pretty common (and getting more common). This can be life-threatening. The only point of trivializing pregnancy is to degrade the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1875 "2011-05-20T14:32:03Z")
Another point of trivializing pregnancy is to minimize or eliminate the need for abortion. The idea that 15% or so oppose abortion to save the life of the mother shows how warped some anti-abortion people are. The correct terms are actually “pro-legal abortion” and “anti-legal abortion.” I will go with “pro-choice” and “anti-abortion.” Pro-abortion makes it sound like we favor women being forced into abortions, which is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1876 "2011-05-20T14:47:32Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > Yes I did have a traumatic experience. Feel free to make fun of that as well. If you remember correctly I mentioned that maybe this subject was to emotional for you to have a rational discussion, and you thanked me. I didn’t mock your experience , that’s not my style. I’ll point out again that your experience doesn’t ad value to your opinion in this thread, or change your abuse of facts and logic. You’ve continued in the thread voluntarily and it’s the pit so please stop whining about how picked on you are. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1877 "2011-05-20T15:21:59Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **OMGABC** > > Do you believe abortion may be justified to save the life of the woman? > If so, would you like to quantify the level of risk to her life at which point abortion is morally justifiable? > Would you care to give evidence to support this opinion? > > **CLHP** hasn’t cared to offer an opinion thus far, and I wouldn’t want to think you were holding back because the question hadn’t been directly put to you. > > I’m looking for something like this from you: > > “Abortion is morally justifiable when the risk to the woman’s life if the pregnancy continues is \_\_% or greater. I believe \_\_\_% is the correct level of risk because of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” > > Please get back to me with a response. Thank you. Why should I? Half the people on this thread have accused me of being a 16 year old boy. It’s understandable though right? We all know that 16 year old males just looove to post their beliefs against abortion:rolleyes: They wouldn’t rather be hanging out with their firends, talking about girls and surfing for porn or texting on their iphones.They get their jollies here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1878 "2011-05-20T15:25:45Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Sure. It’s very irresponsible behaviour, but that doesn’t make her medical decisions my business. > > To me, pro-lifer is a label that means one opposes abortion, full stop. That’s why the more strident ones shoot the doctors or try to burn down the clinics. So you think some stranger you read about is very, very bad. Fine. You think she’s in the wrong. That is no argument for outlawing abortion, because her medical decisions are no more your business than those of someone of whose behaviour you approve. You can sniff and let forth a “Well! I never!” at your examples up there if you want, that’s up to you, but abortion should still be legal. i’m pro-life and contrary to popular belief I’m not a lunatic. The ones who shoot the Dr. are sick in the head and give the rest of us a bad name. Why are we even debating this anymore? Abortion has been legal for a long time and that is highly unikely to change. You guys have already won. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1879 "2011-05-20T15:27:15Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Bravi, bravi, bravissimi! This is what matters–that assholes cannot intimidate others. > > Key quote from the article: > Maybe that’s our \*\*OMG \*\*in the flesh? He sure sounds worried about the dread pro-abortion forces to me. Bravissimi? Really? Non penso che sono che sono bravi. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1880 "2011-05-20T15:36:29Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > i’m pro-life and contrary to popular belief I’m not a lunatic. The ones who shoot the Dr. are sick in the head and give the rest of us a bad name. > Why are we even debating this anymore? Abortion has been legal for a long time and that is highly unikely to change. You guys have already won. We’ve lost on access. So many places have no abortion providers for hundreds of miles or pharmacists that won’t give Plan B. We’ve lost on privacy with enforced parental consent laws. We’ve lost on dignity with offensive laws requiring waiting periods and worse. We’ve lost with the vilification and harassment of women seeking abortions. There is still so much work to do to allow women to avail themselves of this legal procedure with privacy and dignity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=93) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=95)