# Abortion-clinic picketers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935 "2011-05-06T05:57:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1901 "2011-05-20T20:18:10Z")
Thank you for your answer, flippant though it was. What about: [Eisenmenger’s syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenmenger%27s_syndrome). [Hyperemesis Gravidarum related dehydration and renal failure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperemesis_gravidarum). [Eclampsia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclampsia). [HELLP syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HELLP_syndrome) Maternal cancer Where do they fit into your paradigm? Is it a continuum with ectopic pregnancy at one end and inconvenience at the other, or an either/or defining line? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Bird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Little\_Bird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Bird)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1902 "2011-05-20T20:30:20Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Is it a continuum with ectopic pregnancy at one end and inconvenience at the other, or an either/or defining line? I already tried getting an answer about continuums from them here: > [@Little\_Bird](#): > > **A fetus starts out as a single, fertilized cell and over 40 weeks developes into a baby. There is no point at which a definitive line can be drawn to say “before this point this not a baby” and “after this point this is a baby”, just as in this statement there is no point you can definitively the color of the text has changed from purple to blue. Does this mean the color was blue from the start?** And I got this answer: > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Graduations of colors? Yes. Graduation of humans? No. In other words: I acknowledge that graduations and continuums occur, but I choose not to see them in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1903 "2011-05-20T20:59:47Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’m sure you were a bully in school. I LOATHE bullies. Two for bitching! ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1904 "2011-05-20T21:05:29Z")
**classyladyhp** , we are still waiting for you to look at post #1710 and respond. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1905 "2011-05-20T21:35:49Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Not wanting to be a parent vs. an ectopic pregnancy. Where would this one fall (true story) - woman pregnant who has never wanted kids and really doesn’t like them. Continuing the pregnancy carries a better than 75% chance it will end up crippling her. Woman’s genetic background indicates that the fetus has likely inherited some severe health problems. So, is it OK with you if she aborts as soon as she finds out she is pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1906 "2011-05-20T21:53:13Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Where would this one fall (true story) - woman pregnant who has never wanted kids and really doesn’t like them. Continuing the pregnancy carries a better than 75% chance it will end up crippling her. Woman’s genetic background indicates that the fetus has likely inherited some severe health problems. > > So, is it OK with you if she aborts as soon as she finds out she is pregnant? I need more info to answer that one. Since it is a “true” story. What condition did this woman have? How about this one? This scenario actually happens more than 1 out of 1000 times. Woman has sex. No protection is used. She gets pregnant. The pregnancy won’t kill her. She just doesn’t want the responsibility of having a child. Should she abort? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1907 "2011-05-20T21:54:04Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So now we’ve gotten to the point where we’re passing abortion off as a medical decision? How could it be anything but? It’s a medical procedure, so therefore having one is a medical decision. It’s a medical decision that weighs numerous other factors, but so do many medical decisions. > [@](#): > > Again, you’re completely discounting the existence of the unborn. What about its right to self-determination? In order to have a “right” to self-determination, one must have the capacity of self-determination. Since a fetus can’t determine jack diddily squat about an iota of a shred of a scintilla of anything, then no such right can possibly attach. Again, I ask you why you have a problem with the concept that every mother should be a willing mother and every child should be a wanted child? ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1908 "2011-05-20T21:57:39Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I need more info to answer that one. Since it is a “true” story. What condition did this woman have? > How about this one? > This scenario actually happens more than 1 out of 1000 times. Woman has sex. No protection is used. She gets pregnant. The pregnancy won’t kill her. She just doesn’t want the responsibility of having a child. Should she abort? **Curlcoat** gave you plenty of information to state your opinion. Your ham-fisted dodge is cowardly. The woman in your scenario should have the option to decide to abort if she wants to. She should also have the option of having and raising the kid without “proper” society looking down their noses at her and the kid for the rest of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1909 "2011-05-20T21:58:58Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Thank you for your answer, flippant though it was. > > What about: > [Eisenmenger’s syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenmenger%27s_syndrome). > [Hyperemesis Gravidarum related dehydration and renal failure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperemesis_gravidarum). > [Eclampsia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclampsia). > [HELLP syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HELLP_syndrome) > Maternal cancer > > Where do they fit into your paradigm? > > Is it a continuum with ectopic pregnancy at one end and inconvenience at the other, or an either/or defining line? I’ve already answered. Since you are one of the few respectful posters I will answer you again. I believe you stated that you were a Dr.? I am not a medical Dr. If the Dr. determines that the pregnancy will kill the woman then I would not expect her to continue with the pregnancy. I assume the Dr. is qualified to weigh the risks of continuing the pregnancy vs aborting the pregnancy to save the woman’s life. How am I supposed to give you a %? I am not a perinatologist. It’s like expecting a plumber to know how to perform a cesarean section. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1910 "2011-05-20T22:00:26Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > **Curlcoat** gave you plenty of information to state your opinion. Your ham-fisted dodge is cowardly. > > The woman in your scenario should have the option to decide to abort if she wants to. She should also have the option of having and raising the kid without “proper” society looking down their noses at her and the kid for the rest of their lives. Ham-fisted dodge? I need more info. When that info is provided I shall respond. Mind your own business. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1911 "2011-05-20T22:01:37Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > How could it be anything but? It’s a medical procedure, so therefore having one is a medical decision. It’s a medical decision that weighs numerous other factors, but so do many medical decisions. > > In order to have a “right” to self-determination, one must have the capacity of self-determination.\*\* Since a fetus can’t determine jack diddily squat about an iota of a shred of a scintilla of anything, then no such right can possibly attach.\*\*Again, I ask you why you have a problem with the concept that every mother should be a willing mother and every child should be a wanted child? So then you MUST be pro-infanticide. Newborns don’t have self-determination. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1912 "2011-05-20T22:05:01Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I’ve already answered. Since you are one of the few respectful posters I will answer you again. I believe you stated that you were a Dr.? I am not a medical Dr. > If the Dr. determines that the pregnancy will kill the woman then I would not expect her to continue with the pregnancy. I assume the Dr. is qualified to weigh the risks of continuing the pregnancy vs aborting the pregnancy to save the woman’s life. > How am I supposed to give you a %? I am not a perinatologist. > It’s like expecting a plumber to know how to perform a cesarean section. > [@classyladyhp](#): > > So then you MUST be pro-infanticide. Newborns don’t have self-determination. Wait, so are you going to get out from between a woman and her doctor or aren’t you? I need more information. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1913 "2011-05-20T22:08:07Z")
> [@Pullet](#): > > Wait, so are you going to get out from between a woman and her doctor or aren’t you? > > I need more information. 😕 Anyways… ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1914 "2011-05-20T22:14:05Z")
> [@classyladyhp](#): > > I need more info to answer that one. Since it is a “true” story. What condition did this woman have? What difference does it make? You have already said you aren’t a doctor, so why question the doctor that established the 75%? > [@](#): > > How about this one? > This scenario actually happens more than 1 out of 1000 times. Cite? > [@](#): > > Woman has sex. No protection is used. She gets pregnant. The pregnancy won’t kill her. She just doesn’t want the responsibility of having a child. Should she abort? If she wants to. Do you think it better that she end up raising a child she resents? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1915 "2011-05-20T22:18:58Z")
**classyladyhp** , if I understand you, you’re in favour of abortion to save the life of the mother only when a Dr determines that continuing the pregnancy will 100% end her life. Is that a fair representation of your belief? If it isn’t, do feel free to correct me. If so, can you see how a mother of 4 who is told that a pregnancy has a 50% chance of causing her death may still feel an abortion to save her life would be justifiable, and how her doctors may well agree? Do you think that the state should intervene in such a case to prevent the abortion? I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m asking how you would intend to define and enforce “life of the mother” exemptions, which you have already stated that you agree should be integral to any abortion ban. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1916 "2011-05-20T22:29:19Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **classyladyhp** , if I understand you, you’re in favour of abortion to save the life of the mother only when a Dr determines that continuing the pregnancy will 100% end her life. > Is that a fair representation of your belief? If it isn’t, do feel free to correct me. > > If so, can you see how a mother of 4 who is told that a pregnancy has a 50% chance of causing her death may still feel an abortion to save her life would be justifiable, and how her doctors may well agree? > > Do you think that the state should intervene in such a case to prevent the abortion? > > I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m asking how you would intend to define and enforce “life of the mother” exemptions, which you have already stated that you agree should be integral to any abortion ban. I doubt that the Dr. could ever say it would end her life 100%. Nothing in medecine is 100%. If the Dr. feels that the pregnancy needs to be ended to save the life of the mother then I don’t have a problem with it. It is the Dr.'s job to weigh the risk. I really cannot elaborate any further than this. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1917 "2011-05-20T22:33:27Z")
Thank you 🙂 I find it refreshing that you can agree that in at least some circumstances abortion should be a private medical decision between a woman and her doctor. ---
**Author:** ![classyladyhp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@classyladyhp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/classyladyhp)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1918 "2011-05-20T22:34:45Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Thank you 🙂 > > I find it refreshing that you can agree that in at least some circumstances abortion should be a private medical decision between a woman and her doctor. I also thank you for being so respectful:) ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1919 "2011-05-20T22:49:16Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Thank you for your answer, flippant though it was. > > What about: > [Eisenmenger’s syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenmenger%27s_syndrome). > [Hyperemesis Gravidarum related dehydration and renal failure](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperemesis_gravidarum). > [Eclampsia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclampsia). > [HELLP syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HELLP_syndrome) > Maternal cancer > > Where do they fit into your paradigm? > > Is it a continuum with ectopic pregnancy at one end and inconvenience at the other, or an either/or defining line? What about them? How about this? If you’re willing to limit abortion to those cases, I’m perfectly willing to allow abortion in those cases. If not, then there’s no point in bringing this up, because it doesn’t consitute a meaningful portion of your argument. > [@Little\_Bird](#): > > I already tried getting an answer about continuums from them here: > > And I got this answer: > > In other words: I acknowledge that graduations and continuums occur, but I choose not to see them in this instance. Yeah, that’s precisely what it meant. Or, you know, I could have meant precisely what I said before. There’s no such thing as graduations of humans. Unless, of course, you’re arbitrarily defining what it means to be human, in which case I wonder why anyone should accept your definition over any other less arbitrary definition? But that’s a question I’ve asked numerous times now, so I doubt I’ll be getting an answer anytime soon. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Where would this one fall (true story) - woman pregnant who has never wanted kids and really doesn’t like them. Continuing the pregnancy carries a better than 75% chance it will end up crippling her. Woman’s genetic background indicates that the fetus has likely inherited some severe health problems. > > So, is it OK with you if she aborts as soon as she finds out she is pregnant? Of course not. (I figured you would have had a harder question or something.) [QUOTE=tumbleddown] So now we’ve gotten to the point where we’re passing abortion off as a medical decision? How could it be anything but? It’s a medical procedure, so therefore having one is a medical decision. It’s a medical decision that weighs numerous other factors, but so do many medical decisions. [/quote] So, hypothetically speaking, of course, if I wanted to get my arms replaced with machine guns, no one can stop me because that would be a private, medical decision/procedure? > [@](#): > > In order to have a “right” to self-determination, one must have the capacity of self-determination. Since a fetus can’t determine jack diddily squat about an iota of a shred of a scintilla of anything, then no such right can possibly attach. If this were true, then it should be legal to throw a newborn into the Hudson, but few would agree with that. > [@](#): > > Again, I ask you why you have a problem with the concept that every mother should be a willing mother and every child should be a wanted child? I don’t. Another easy question to answer. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935/1920 "2011-05-20T23:31:44Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Of course not. So you are for life but don’t care what the quality of that life is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=95) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-clinic-picketers/580935.md?page=97)