# Abortion coverage should not be holding up the healthcare bill **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369 "2009-12-07T21:42:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/81 "2009-12-11T03:36:49Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Wombats](#): > > (Emphasis Added) > > So, we’re justified in invading another nation over what _might_ happen? > > Not what actually does happen, or what has happened, but a mere possibility is sufficient to create just circumstances for war? > > You have got to be joking. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973\_Chile\_coup](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chile_coup) > [@](#): > > At the end of 1971, Cuban President Fidel Castro visited Chile in a four-week state visit giving credence to the belief that the Chilean Way to Socialism placed Chile en route to Cuban Socialism, i.e. soviet Communism.[9] > > Supreme Court’s resolution > > On 26 May 1973, Chile’s Supreme Court unanimously denounced the Allende régime’s disruption of the legality of the nation in its failure to uphold judicial decisions, because of its continual refusal to permit police execution of judicial resolutions contradicting the Government’s measures. > [edit] Chamber of Deputies’ resolution > Question book-new.svg > This article needs additional citations for verification. > Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (August 2009) > > On 22 August 1973, with the support of the Christian Democrats and National Party members, the Chamber of Deputies passed 81-47 a resolution that asked “the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces” [19] to put an immediate end to breach[es of] the Constitution . . . with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the Constitutional order of our Nation, and the essential underpinnings of democratic co-existence among Chileans. > > The resolution declared that the Allende Government sought . . . to conquer absolute power with the obvious purpose of subjecting all citizens to the strictest political and economic control by the State . . . [with] the goal of establishing a totalitarian system, claiming it had made violations of the Constitution . . . a permanent system of conduct. Essentially, most of the accusations were about the Socialist Government disregarding the separation of powers, and arrogating legislative and judicial prerogatives to the executive branch of government. > > Specifically, the Socialist Government of President Allende was accused of: > > ``` > * ruling by decree, thwarting the normal legislative system > * refusing to enforce judicial decisions against its partisans; not carrying out sentences and judicial resolutions that contravene its objectives > * ignoring the decrees of the independent General Comptroller's Office > * sundry media offences; usurping control of the National Television Network and applying ... economic pressure against those media organizations that are not unconditional supporters of the government... > * allowing its socialist supporters to assemble armed, preventing the same by its right wing opponents > * . . . supporting more than 1,500 illegal ‘takings’ of farms... > * illegal repression of the El Teniente miners’ strike > * illegally limiting emigration > > ``` > > Finally, the resolution condemned the creation and development of government-protected [socialist] armed groups, which . . . are headed towards a confrontation with the armed forces. President Allende’s efforts to re-organize the military and the police forces were characterised as notorious attempts to use the armed and police forces for partisan ends, destroy their institutional hierarchy, and politically infiltrate their ranks [20]. > > Soviet role > > According to the Mitrokhin Archive, the KGB and the Cuban Intelligence Directorate launched a disinformation campaign following the coup.[22] It is reported that Salvador Allende had a long-lasting relationship with the KGB[23] and the Cuban packages scandal had revealed arms smuggling from Cuba.[24][25] On the other hand sources suggest that the Soviet Union was sympathetic to Allende, but did not assist him because they believed he was “weak” for refusing to use force against the opposition.[23] > > According to Allende’s KGB file, Allende “was made to understand the necessity of reorganising Chile’s army and intelligence services, and of setting up a relationship between Chile’s and the USSR’s intelligence services”.[23] > > It has been argued that the USSR refused to finance Allende mainly because of his unwillingness of forming a Soviet-type of bureaucratic system[26] > > As a personal observer, a fact few noticed is the role Soviet Union during the days immediately following the coup d’état. In that time most local radios were silenced by the Pinochet regime and the people sintonized foreign short wave radios. Actually, the clear one was Radio Moscú. During those days the Radio Moscú broadcasted that an army commaned by general Prat was marching on the capital from the south to overthrow the military regime. Those news, without any other confirmation, gave confidence to small left-wing armed militants to begin a fight against the armed forces. However, later on those news proved to be false and many of the militants died in the fight and other were captured and tortured. This was also an excuse for the military to begin detaining people searching for guns and other military gear. Thousand of people suffered torture to reveal where the guns supposedly brought by the Cubans to make the Revolution were hidden. It’s pretty much undeniable there was a connection between Allende and the Soviets and Cubans and Allende wanted more power. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh? And it what way has it been better than the alternatives? Is being oppressed or tortured or raped or murdered by Americans or their tools somehow nicer than suffering the same at the hands of some other faction? America in it’s 233 years of history has far less blood on it’s hand than virtually any other superpower or great power. The British Empire, Russians/Soviets, Chinese, all have killed directly and indirectly far more people. > [@](#): > > “The scum we installed to rule over them were overthrown, so that makes it OK that we put them there”? Is that really what you want to argue? As for Allende, how does replacing someone you think posed a “danger of becoming a dictator” with an actual dictator count as an improvement? And what makes you think that Allende or Morales is as bad as our boy Pinochet? Thousands of people tortured and murdered, with our help - that’s what you call “good”. America has recognized it’s mistakes and has apologized to many of these involvements in Latin America and in many cases played a role in overthrowing Latin American dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/82 "2009-12-11T03:49:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > It’s pretty much undeniable there was a connection between Allende and the Soviets and Cubans and Allende wanted more power. Assuming that’s true, so what? Do all the people tortured and murdered by Pinochet with the help of America in his place not count? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > America in it’s 233 years of history has far less blood on it’s hand than virtually any other superpower or great power. The British Empire, Russians/Soviets, Chinese, all have killed directly and indirectly far more people. Oh, really. I see no reason to believe that, nor does it matter much. You sound like someone who responds to an accusation of murder by pointing at someone else and saying, “Well, he’s a murderer AND an arsonist!”: > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > America has recognized it’s mistakes and has apologized to many of these involvements in Latin America and in many cases played a role in overthrowing Latin American dictators. Since when has America “recognized its mistakes”? Or apologized? Or bothered to overthrow dictators without replacing them with someone as bad or worse? We are STILL doing what we have always done; Iraq being a case in point. We slaughter and conquer and devastate other nations, and are so arrogant that we take offense that they aren’t grateful for it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/83 "2009-12-11T05:10:56Z")
Take the war debate into a new thread. It does not belong in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/84 "2009-12-11T17:21:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Let’s get back to healthcare, shall we? I agree that we should take it one step at a time – does Planned Parenthood work with those who don’t have a way to pay for an abortion? Not all Planned Parenthood clinics work the same way when it comes to offering reduced rates, and not all of them provide abortion services (though I’m pretty sure all will point women in the direction of their nearest provider, even if it is a state away). It’s pretty evident that all barring access to abortion does, either legally or through hoops like waiting periods and high prices, is increase rates of medical complications from DIY methods and untrained practitioners and keep women (and their children – most people seeking abortions already have one or more children) in a cycle of poverty. [What it doesn’t do is decrease abortion rates.](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html) So to ban a safe, legal procedure that over a million American women have done every year on some moral basis (that does not apparently apply to funding wars, bail outs or Viagra) is somewhat flawed. Re. being able to afford the cost of an abortion. [Here’s](http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2009/12/10/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Guttmacher+(New+from+the+Guttmacher+Institute)) an interesting report from the Guttmacher Institute about the high rate of uninsured women of reproductive age (and the strain they’re putting on family planning centers, especially those who have lost their jobs and insurance). > [@](#): > > Two-thirds of the responding centers reported an increase in the number of clients seeking contraceptive services between the first quarter of 2008 and the first quarter of 2009, and more than four in five reported an increase in the number of clients who are poor or low-income and therefore eligible for free or reduced-fee care. In addition, nearly two-thirds reported a decline in the number of clients who are able to pay the full fee for services. > > “The recession has put many women in an untenable situation. They want to avoid unintended pregnancies more than ever, but are having trouble affording the contraceptive services they need to do so,” says Dr. Sharon Camp, Guttmacher president and CEO. “The very providers these women turn to in times of crisis are themselves struggling to make ends meet. It is time to bolster the nation’s family planning system to help women avoid unintended pregnancies and the unplanned births and abortions that would result.” ---
**Author:** ![StoutHearted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@StoutHearted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StoutHearted)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/85 "2009-12-11T18:15:10Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Abortion I feel is murdered so why should taxpayers be forced to pay for it and have part of the blood on their own hands? Because your opinions do not change the fact that abortion is a legal medical procedure. Do you really want to go down the road where people can object to their fellow countrymen’s medical procedures on the basis that they think it makes God angry? Keep in mind there are large groups of people who are against vaccines and medical treatment in general for religious reasons. Why should your religious worries outweigh theirs? And let’s cut the dramatics. Unless you yourself become pregnant and have an abortion, there’s no “blood on your hands,” in the way you use that expression. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/86 "2009-12-11T18:36:24Z")
> [@StoutHearted](#): > > Because your opinions do not change the fact that abortion is a legal medical procedure. Do you really want to go down the road where people can object to their fellow countrymen’s medical procedures on the basis that they think it makes God angry? Keep in mind there are large groups of people who are against vaccines and medical treatment in general for religious reasons. Why should your religious worries outweigh theirs? > > And let’s cut the dramatics. Unless you yourself become pregnant and have an abortion, there’s no “blood on your hands,” in the way you use that expression. The discussion is not about objecting to a procedure. It’s whether or not taxpayer money should be used for the procedure. The Hyde ammendment says no so what’s the problem with the Stupak ammendment? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/87 "2009-12-11T19:27:27Z")
> [@StoutHearted](#): > > Keep in mind there are large groups of people who are against vaccines and medical treatment in general for religious reasons. Why should your religious worries outweigh theirs? Good point. Why should Jehovah’s Witnesses have to help pay for blood transfusions? Why should anti-vaccers’ tax dollars help fund not just vaccinations themselves, but the research that develops them? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/88 "2009-12-12T04:15:10Z")
> [@StoutHearted](#): > > Because your opinions do not change the fact that abortion is a legal medical procedure. Do you really want to go down the road where people can object to their fellow countrymen’s medical procedures on the basis that they think it makes God angry? Keep in mind there are large groups of people who are against vaccines and medical treatment in general for religious reasons. Why should your religious worries outweigh theirs? > > And let’s cut the dramatics. Unless you yourself become pregnant and have an abortion, there’s no “blood on your hands,” in the way you use that expression. Pleeeeeeesssseeee do NOT get him started on this! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/89 "2009-12-12T17:48:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Assuming that’s true, so what? Do all the people tortured and murdered by Pinochet with the help of America in his place not count? What I am saying is that we have averted a worse dictator by overthrowing Allende. > [@](#): > > Oh, really. I see no reason to believe that, nor does it matter much. You sound like someone who responds to an accusation of murder by pointing at someone else and saying, “Well, he’s a murderer AND an arsonist!”: The United States has never intentionally commited genocide nor have they starved millions to death. > [@](#): > > Since when has America “recognized its mistakes”? Or apologized? Or bothered to overthrow dictators without replacing them with someone as bad or worse? Where have you been in the last few months when President Obama went around apologizing numerous times? > [@](#): > > We are STILL doing what we have always done; Iraq being a case in point. We slaughter and conquer and devastate other nations, and are so arrogant that we take offense that they aren’t grateful for it. Look at Grenada or Panama or South Korea or the many other places where an American intervention has generally been positive. > [@StoutHearted](#): > > Because your opinions do not change the fact that abortion is a legal medical procedure. Do you really want to go down the road where people can object to their fellow countrymen’s medical procedures on the basis that they think it makes God angry? Keep in mind there are large groups of people who are against vaccines and medical treatment in general for religious reasons. Why should your religious worries outweigh theirs? > > And let’s cut the dramatics. Unless you yourself become pregnant and have an abortion, there’s no “blood on your hands,” in the way you use that expression. Lack of vaccinations threaten the public but this does not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/90 "2009-12-12T19:10:09Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > What I am saying is that we have averted a worse dictator by overthrowing Allende. And what reason do you have to think that Pinochet was better? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The United States has never intentionally commited genocide nor have they starved millions to death. No genocide? This country was built with genocide. And then there’s slavery. And all the tyrants we propped up and installed. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Look at Grenada or Panama or South Korea or the many other places where an American intervention has generally been positive. “Many” being “almost none”. America has been a affliction upon the world. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Lack of vaccinations threaten the public but this does not. Half the population is female; forbidding abortion is an assault upon them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369/91 "2009-12-12T23:49:42Z")
**Curtis LeMay** and **Der Trihs** , take your binary discussion of U.S. politics, particularly in foreign affairs, out of this thread. We don’t need the hijack. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-coverage-should-not-be-holding-up-the-healthcare-bill/520369.md?page=4)