# Abortion Doctor Murderer Martyr? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242 "2003-09-03T00:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/21 "2003-09-03T16:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Mariachi \* > Apparently ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’ only applies if you’re not killing in the name of God. Not to hijackthe thread or anything, but given how many time the Biblical God has advocated murder and violence in the Bible (especially the Old Testament), is this really a surprise? ---
**Author:** ![HumanStromboli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@HumanStromboli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumanStromboli)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/22 "2003-09-03T16:57:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\ ***HumanStromboli:** > > The reason I don’t engage these people in substantive conversation is simply because I don’t know them that well, and I have never really had a reason to get into a deep conversation with them much less stink up the whole room by talking about their views on a hot button topic like abortion. \*\* Fair enough. Like I said, I didn’t intend to be judgmental. > [@](#): > > \*\*Like hell it doesn’t! It’s not the sort of thing that Jesus would teach, but the Bible (OT especially) comes up with all sorts of reasons to kill people. \*\* Yes, it does. But either my distinction isn’t valid, or you’re missing it. Those were, for lack of a better term, “governmental punishments.” No one was lone-wolfing it, IOW. > [@](#): > > \*\*A lot of people are for capital punishment. That’s basically murdering the murderer, so it’s not that unusual. \*\* Again, that’s governmentally-sanctioned punishment. Not the same thing, necessarily, as a pissed-off (and crazy) vigilante “taking the law in his own hands.” > [@](#): > > \*\*I think that if it came right down to it, most of the abortion=murder crowd would admit that it doesn’t quite equal murder, and that’s why they don’t support Hill and his like. \*\* Possibly. But either way, I’d suspect they would not support him b/c the government has not sanctioned the murder of the abortion doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/23 "2003-09-03T20:17:30Z")
tomndebb, I simply don’t agree. The fact is, the excuses for inaction or even peacible would be considered laughable and self-serving in what pro-life people already claim is a morally equivalent situation. If you believe that abortion is as bad as killing a person, then you are the equivalent of holding a sign while the Nazis round up Jews. At the very least, something like kidnapping mothers who intend abortions and preventing them from aborting would be more than justified. And Hill didn’t just stop the doctor he killed. He also made the entire profession that much more dangerous to enter, deterring other doctors. Right now, less abortions are performed simply because it is getting very hard to find anyone willing to do them. Hill is part of the reason why. I’m not defending him, but if I seriously believed that abortion was murder, I don’t see how I could NOT defend him and what he did. Legally, if fetuses were persons, then self-defense or defence of others would more than cover his actions, making it justifiable homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/24 "2003-09-03T20:24:27Z")
Perhaps some people simply believe that two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m the opposite-I don’t see how, if you think abortion is murder, you could go out and kill someone else. Isn’t that the same damn thing? Besides, bombing clinics-technically, if there are pregnant women there, you’re murdering the unborn as well. D’uh. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/25 "2003-09-03T22:25:15Z")
Let me put it to you this way, **Guinastasia**. A few years ago, if the only way you could have stopped Jeffrey Baumhammer mid-killing spree was by killing him, would you have done so? I would. I’d regret it, and I’d go to confession and accept any penalties associated with it, but I would have done so. That is what I think Mr. Hill sees himself as doing. He’s stopping a mass murderer from taking more innocent lives. Who do you save, one or many? CJ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/26 "2003-09-03T22:46:40Z")
Siege: I believe Guin was pointing out that those who bomb clinics and kill the doctor also kill other people who are not the abortion doctor. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/27 "2003-09-03T22:48:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > A few years ago, if the only way you could have stopped Jeffrey Baumhammer mid-killing spree was by killing him, would you have done so? I would. I’d regret it, and I’d go to confession and accept any penalties associated with it, but I would have done so. That is what I think Mr. Hill sees himself as doing. He’s stopping a mass murderer from taking more innocent lives. The difference is that we (as an American society) can agree that Baumhammer’s killing spree was illegal, but we do _not_ agree that the abortions were illegal. The law of the land says the abortions _were_ legal, but Mr. Hill decided to circumvent the law and used vigilante tactics to impose his interpretation onto the issue. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/28 "2003-09-03T22:54:37Z")
The thing that pisses me off about this guy is that he is smiling in every picture, mostly because he believes that there is a reward waiting for his actions. That scares the shit out of me in the same way that the 9/11 hijackers felt they were to be rewarded. When someone has that mindset, believing that with all of their heart, I don’t think that there is any way to reach them. As far as the copycats, I wouldn’t be surprised if that occurs. During his chat with the press (which I am so against), he mentioned that others should follow his path. From AP: > [@](#): > > “I expect a great reward in heaven,” he said in an interview Tuesday, during which he was cheerful, often smiling. “I am looking forward to glory.” > Hill suggested others should take up his violent cause. And someone just might do that. Why on earth was this guy given air time to rally his followers? I’ve seriously never heard of this before. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/29 "2003-09-03T22:55:26Z")
Well, there is a difference between murdering someone and killing them, which is why I’m for capital punishment. What’s the difference? IMO it’s intent. I also believe abortion is murder, so do I execute judgement on someone because of it? Why stop at abortion then? Someone lies, they’re toast, or do we rate sin as being good sin vs. bad sin? As for God in all this, the Bible says there will come a time when people will kill in God’s name, thinking they’re doing God a favour, but it is because they don’t know Him. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/30 "2003-09-03T22:57:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*The difference is that we (as an American society) can agree that Baumhammer’s killing spree was illegal, but we do _not_ agree that the abortions were illegal. The law of the land says the abortions _were_ legal, but Mr. Hill decided to circumvent the law and used vigilante tactics to impose his interpretation onto the issue. \*\* But for other actions that are legal, we would still accept and even expect people to try to stop mass murders through violent means. This is where the Nazi example is useful. Julie ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/31 "2003-09-03T23:37:30Z")
Keep in mind that Hill killed **two** people. One had never performed an abortion at all. That right there tells you the man was nothing but a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/32 "2003-09-04T00:40:17Z")
**Monty** nailed it. FWIW, I would have killed Baumhammers if necessary. But that’s more of a defense case. I know these people see themselves as heroes, but I still have a hard time rapping my brain around it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/33 "2003-09-04T01:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > If you believe that abortion is as bad as killing a person, then you are the equivalent of holding a sign while the Nazis round up Jews. I am sure that there are people who believe that, but you’re going to need to connect all the unspoken and assumed dots to draw that picture. In point of fact, a great many people actively opposed the Nazi killings by interfering with (hiding) the Nazi targets or by interfering with Nazi bureaucracy who never went out and began shooting members of the SS or the Gestapo. Murder is an objective evil that one commits. There is no moral guideline of which I am aware that says I am compelled to commit one evil in order to prevent another evil. (There are, as I have noted, a number of ways that one can arrive at that conclusion, but it is not a simple matter of "If person A is committing murder, then I am compelled to murder person A to prevent it.) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/34 "2003-09-04T01:47:27Z")
> [@](#): > > The law of the land says the abortions were legal, but Mr. Hill decided to circumvent the law and used vigilante tactics to impose his interpretation onto the issue. Blind obedience to the law isn’t any sort of laudable ethic. > [@](#): > > I’m the opposite-I don’t see how, if you think abortion is murder, you could go out and kill someone else. Isn’t that the same damn thing? No. > [@](#): > > Besides, bombing clinics-technically, if there are pregnant women there, you’re murdering the unborn as well. D’uh. Hill didn’t bomb a clinic, he killed a doctor and the man guarding that doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/35 "2003-09-04T01:55:52Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no moral guideline of which I am aware that says I am compelled to commit one evil in order to prevent another evil. Killing someone is not an objective evil when it serves to save someone else. Perhaps you can argue that you are not compelled, but can you really argue that it is not justified? Regardless, murder may not always be the only option. But simply peacefully protesting in the face of ongoing murder would be outrageously silly in any other situation. In the Nazi situation, can you not agree that what the resistors did is far far more active than simply protesting, and would be more equivalent to kidnapping women determined to abort and acts of sabotage? And frankly, the people in the Nazi situation were also motivated out of self-preservation. They had no hope of fighting the Nazis openly. That doesn’t mean that martyring themselves to save Jews _wouldn’t_ have been justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/36 "2003-09-04T02:15:57Z")
Blind obediance is not required of the law in this country. We have this nifty little thing called a representative government. Said government has been known to change laws in response to the people’s lawful agitation for reform. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/37 "2003-09-04T03:01:27Z")
[Nitpick] It’s either _Richard_ Baumhammer or Jeffrey _Dahmer_. [/Nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/38 "2003-09-04T03:18:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Blind obediance is not required of the law in this country. We have this nifty little thing called a representative government. Said government has been known to change laws in response to the people’s lawful agitation for reform. This is neither here nor there. We are talking about ethics. What may or may not be ethical does not depend on what may or may not be currently legal. In the early 1800s, the fact that the U.S. government would in some future time free all slaves is not any sort of meaningful defense of a concurrent and ongoing ownership of slaves. The fact that legislation could be a good long term solution in no way reduces the justification for breaking laws that are wrong, right now, especially when there is little hope that the laws will change fast enough to deal with present conditions. The refusal to break a law simply because it IS the law and for no other reason, IS a blind obedience to the law. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/39 "2003-09-04T04:14:50Z")
“Harriet Beecher Stowe and Abraham Lincoln are gutless little shits, and complete hypocrites. After all, if people like them REALLY thought slavery was evil, they’d be out with John Brown, killing slave traders. The fact that they aren’t proves that, deep down, they know there’s nothing wrong with slavery.” - Jefferson Davis ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242/40 "2003-09-04T05:22:55Z")
OK, lets deal with the Nazi angle up front. Suppose there was a concentration camp in your town, where Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, the insane, and the handicapped were being systematically killed. And everyone knows about it, but no one does anything about it, and the law allows it to go on. So what actions do you take, if you believe murder is wrong? Do you start a one man assassination spree, killing the guards at the camp? Since we all agree that massacring Jews is murder, shouldn’t you commit murder to stop murder? Maybe…but only if you actually WERE going to stop murders. If you kill one guard, or two or a dozen, you don’t stop the camps. The camps go right on working, you haven’t saved a single holocaust victim by your murderous actions. Unless killing the guards was a means to actually saving people, it would be wrong. You would have killed someone, perhaps a guilty someone, but what have you accomplished? Nothing. All you’ve done is make people more sure that genocide is correct, after all, the people who are against the genocide are murderers. You’ve made people MORE sure that the holocaust is correct, not convinced people that they should stop the holocaust. So suppose one believes that abortion is morally equivalent to cutting the throat of a 6 month old baby. Is killing abortion doctors going to stop abortion? Not really, not unless everyone began to agree with you that abortion was murder and stopped it everywhere. Unless killing abortion doctors stops abortion, it would be unjustifed. The abortion doctor doesn’t go around killing babies at random, women come to him to have their babies killed. You have to make the women who decide to have their babies killed change their minds in some way. And one big difference between the abortion debate and the concentration camps is that if you protested the concentration camps and told people that the camps were wrong, you stood a very good chance of ending up in one of the camps yourself. But peaceful abortion protestors face no such threat in the United States. We may have legalized murder, but we haven’t made protesting against legalized murder illegal. Anyway, the whole analogy is flawed. Think about all the people who really did live near the camps. They knew murder was going on there every day. Some might have approved, but many knew it was wrong. How many of the people who thought murdering Jews was wrong decided that they must therefore kill camp guards at random? I don’t think anyone actually did this. And there was no moral ambiguity, Jews were executed every day, and people who knew it was wrong did nothing. If you can answer the question about why they did nothing, then you might understand why people who thing abortion is wrong, or even think abortion is murder still don’t go around killing abortion doctors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-doctor-murderer-martyr/199242.md?page=3)