# Abortion/drugs/etc.: Does making things illegal work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171 "2006-02-12T22:45:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/1 "2006-02-12T22:45:49Z")
I’m just curious if making things illegal works as a deterant. Would making abortion illegal change much of anything? It seems to me another approach is needed. I don’t know what, but making abortion illegal, it seems to me, just means that more and more babies are going to be found in dumsters and back alleys. Is that ridiculous? With drugs, it seems pretty obvious that that’s not working. I’m from South Carolina, and if I see people doing coke and X on a regular basis, it seems like it could only be more prevalent in other areas. What is making drugs illegal doing? I’m not saying that we should just make all of this legal, but I’m curious what other approaches are there? What does making something illegal do? I’m rushing through this question, because it’s late and I’m going to bed (I’m in Paris, not SC). ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/2 "2006-02-12T23:05:14Z")
It depends on what your criteria for ‘work’ is. Many things can be made to work that arent necessarily ‘right’ though, I think sometimes the two are tied together too automatically as an argument. Eg if abortion could be effectively be made illegal through advances in law enforcement to a level where backyard abortions and abandonments were non-existent that that would make it ‘OK’. My take is it wouldnt as it still takes away a womans control over her body amongst other issues. In my view making things illegal generally ‘works’ (with the caveat above) best when the majority of the population believe it should be illegal and are willing to assist in enforcing it. It tends to be least effective when the converse is true. Which is why drugs tend to be tricky. Otara ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/3 "2006-02-12T23:35:37Z")
Prior to Roe v. Wade, the abortion rate in the USA was rather low. [According to a 1981 study by Barbara J. Syska, Thomas W. Hilgers, and Dennis O’Hare](http://www.nrlc.org/news/2006/NRL01/HTML/AbortionDistortionPage29.html), > [@](#): > > “a reasonable estimate for the actual number of criminal abortions per year [prior to 1967] would be from a low of 39,000 (1950) to a high of 210,000 (1961) and a mean of 98,000 per year.” In comparison, nearly 1.5 million abortions are now performed each year in the USA, now that abortion has been legalized. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/4 "2006-02-12T23:59:52Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Prior to Roe v. Wade, the abortion rate in the USA was rather low. [According to a 1981 study by Barbara J. Syska, Thomas W. Hilgers, and Dennis O’Hare](http://www.nrlc.org/news/2006/NRL01/HTML/AbortionDistortionPage29.html), > > In comparison, nearly 1.5 million abortions are now performed each year in the USA, now that abortion has been legalized. Do you have any sources for before and after information that don’t come from anti-abortion organizations, and which discuss underreporting of what was previously reported as a criminal act as well as adjusting rates to reflect for population increases? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/5 "2006-02-13T00:04:06Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Prior to Roe v. Wade, the abortion rate in the USA was rather low. [According to a 1981 study by Barbara J. Syska, Thomas W. Hilgers, and Dennis O’Hare](http://www.nrlc.org/news/2006/NRL01/HTML/AbortionDistortionPage29.html), > > In comparison, nearly 1.5 million abortions are now performed each year in the USA, now that abortion has been legalized. To echo **Jackmannii** , I have to question any cite that starts with: > [@](#): > > The engine that powers the pro-abortion wrecking machine is a high octane, fuel-injected mythology that is as powerful as it is inaccurate. This faux-history softened public opinion, leveled abortion statutes during the 1960s, and offered courts a convenient justification for overturning protective abortion laws. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/6 "2006-02-13T00:33:07Z")
As for drugs, it is market forces that drive it. By making it illegal and enforcing it you limit supply, while demand is initially the same. The price rises to encourage people to risk selling, the rising price will lower demand somewhat, and increase supply unitll a equilibrium is reaches. So the ‘war on drugs’ has: Reduced demand by increasing prices Reduced supply by increasing risk Increased the reward of selling by rasing prices. As for making abortion illegal, I can’t see it happening. I can see the overturn of Roe, but that is because it was a incorrect decision (IMHO), but that does not outlaw abortion, and gives the chance to do it right and actually put it in the constitution if we the people really want it there. ---
**Author:** ![Khan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3ab097/32.png) [@Khan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/7 "2006-02-13T01:03:58Z")
My credentials are such that this may very well be a WAG, but I’d like to see if these ideas have merit (if so, I’d appreciate some advice as to where I might look to investigate further). It seems to me that there are three things that allowed organized crime to gain a foothold in the United States in the first half of the 20th century (in no particular order): 1.) Corruption developing within organized labor 2.) Illegality of gambling creating a “power vacuum” that the mob was willing and able to fill in place of government regulation 3.) Bootlegging during prohibition. The public wanted their bets, they wanted their liquor, but the markets were forced underground by virtue of being illegal. Because of this, consumers couldn’t turn to law enforcement if they were abused or cheated, and as a result the extralegal entities in control of the “industry” were accountable to no one. They could buy officials. They could arrange hits on competitors. They could sell tainted goods\*. It happened in the US in the 20’s and 30’s, and look what it’s done to countries like Colombia in more recent decades. I don’t even know where to begin developing a solution, but that’s not within the scope of this thread. It seems that outlawing things is ineffective at best, and creates a host of other problems at worst. It amounts to sweeping things under the rug, letting shit build up without actually taking care of it. So, in response to the OP, making things illegal doesn’t work. \*This applies to abortion, too. Without government oversight you have no way to make sure practitioners use proper techniques, or are even certified clinicians to begin with. It might deter some unfortunate, shortsighted young women from “killing babies,” but the truly desperate will be at the mercy of some shady characters. Indeed, won’t somebody think of the children? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/8 "2006-02-13T01:52:00Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Do you have any sources for before and after information that don’t come from anti-abortion organizations… Somehow I doubt you’d be saying the same thing if someone were to cite a Planned Parenthood article in support of abortion. But hold onto your hat… > [@](#): > > and which discuss underreporting of what was previously reported as a criminal act as well as adjusting rates to reflect for population increases? There’s always the original article by Syska et al. It’s titled “An Objective Model for Estimating Criminal Abortions and Its Implications for Public Policy” and was published in _New Perspectives on Human Abortion_ (Hilgers, Horan & Mall eds. 1981). Moreover, the increase in abortions was almost immediate. According to the Guttmacher Institute, the number of abortions doubled from 1972 to 1977 – way too fast for mere population growth to account for ([cite](http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/trends.pdf), PDF). The Alan Guttmacher report shows that abortions increased dramatically as states first started liberalizing the abortion laws in 1970, and continued to increase after the Roe v. Wade decision. Oh, and before you complain about this coming from an “anti-abortion organization” – [the Alan Guttmacher Institute is a division of Planned Parenthood](http://www.agi-usa.org/about/history.html). So it is a very biased source indeed, albeit biased toward the pro-choice cause. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/9 "2006-02-13T02:01:14Z")
> [@Khan](#): > > This applies to abortion, too. Without government oversight you have no way to make sure practitioners use proper techniques, or are even certified clinicians to begin with. That’s not what Planned Parenthood said, though. In an article published in a 1960 issue of _The American Journal of Public Health,_ Planned Parenthood medical director Mary Calderone said, > [@](#): > > “Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind…Second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians…Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist…So remember…abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians.” Do you folks still want to complain about it coming from a biased source? Remember, this was Planned Parenthood’s own representative speaking. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/10 "2006-02-13T02:04:45Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > That’s not what Planned Parenthood said, though. In an article published in a 1960 issue of _The American Journal of Public Health,_ Planned Parenthood medical director Mary Calderone said… BTW, here is a more complete cite, [courtesy of **Walloon**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6706872&postcount=107). By Mary Steichen Calderone, M.D., M.S.P.H., F.A.P.H.A., “Illegal Abortion as a Public Health Problem,” American Journal of Public Health 50:948-954 (July 1960): > [@](#): > > However, in 1955 [abortion] was exhaustively contemplated by 43 men and women from the various disciplines of obstetrics, psychiatry, public health, sociology, forensic medicine, and law and demography, who were uneasy enough about this dis-ease [sic] to sit down for eight, three-hour sessions to bring it into realistic focus. The proceedings and conclusions of this conference were published in book form in 1958. Here are some of the facts established. . . : > > Fact No. 3 — Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physicians. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind. In New York City in 1921 there were 144 abortion deaths, in 1951 there were only 15, and while the abortion death rate was going down strikingly in that 30-year period, we know what happened to the population and the birth rate. Two corollary factors must be mentioned here: first, chemotherapy and antibiotics have come in, benefiting all surgical procedures as well as abortion. Second, and even more important, the conference estimated that 90 per cent of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians. Call them what you will, abortionists or anything else, they are still physicians, trained as such; and many of them are in good standing in their communities. They must do a pretty good job if the death rate is as low as it is. Whatever trouble arises usually comes after self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 per cent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Another corollary fact: physicians of impeccable standing are referring their patients for these illegal abortions to the colleagues whom they know are willing to perform them, or they are sending their patients to certain sources outside of this country where abortion is performed under excellent medical conditions. The acceptance of these facts was such that one outstanding gynecologist at the conference declared: “From the ethical standpoint, I see no difference between recommending an abortion and performing it. The moral responsibility is equal.” So remember fact number three: abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/11 "2006-02-13T04:22:00Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > The Alan Guttmacher report shows that abortions increased dramatically as states first started liberalizing the abortion laws in 1970, and continued to increase after the Roe v. Wade decision. Oh, and before you complain about this coming from an “anti-abortion organization” – [the Alan Guttmacher Institute is a division of Planned Parenthood](http://www.agi-usa.org/about/history.html). So it is a very biased source indeed, albeit biased toward the pro-choice cause. I guess there was a good chance a thread like this would turn into an anti-abortion rights/pro-abortion rights thread (if it didn’t morph into a debate on drug laws). Before leaving the subject of abortion I will note that unfortunately, **JThunder’s** Guttmacher Institute report link doesn’t do that much for his argument. If you look at the first graph, you see that legal abortions in the U.S. kept increasing at the same rate **after** \* Roe\* as they did before it. In fact, there was a steeper rise between 1969-71 (pre-Roe) than after the Supreme Court’s decision. So it’s hard to see that making abortion legally available across the nation (at least in theory) caused a big spike in the number of abortions (of course illegal abortions, with their attendant greatly heightened risk of sepsis, pain, sterility and death, undoubtedly fell sharply). To get back towards the subject of the OP, I don’t think one can generalize and say that because a law doesn’t stop something from occurring, it has no effective deterrent value. When it comes to “sin” laws, it’s arguable that while one can’t stop illegal drug use, prostitution and gambling, one can keep something of a lid on it and prevent a degree of societal harm. The real debate comes when it’s recognized that some of these laws spawn more trouble than they’re worth in the form of corruption and encouragement of organized crime. ---
**Author:** ![Regardie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Regardie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regardie)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/12 "2006-02-13T04:43:58Z")
Good question. My first thought is; can the government make money off of it? I am guessing the government doesn’t feel it can make money off of drugs being made legal (and the gov selling and taxing them). As for abortion, no money can be made from it, but the lobby was powerful. The drug lobby-not so powerful. Theres a demand for both. If enough people want something bad enough, they will do it regardless of the law. Making it illegal will not fix anything. If anything, poeple will get more creative in doing it illegally. It would be nice if the government made things illegal, they would stop. Isn’t the case, even when the death penalty gets involved. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/13 "2006-02-13T04:55:42Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > I’m just curious if making things illegal works as a deterant. Would making abortion illegal change much of anything? Do you differentiate between the process of making something illegal and the punishments or intimidation factors that enforce the policy? Are those two different things in your question? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/14 "2006-02-13T05:13:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Before leaving the subject of abortion I will note that unfortunately, **JThunder’s** Guttmacher Institute report link doesn’t do that much for his argument. If you look at the first graph, you see that legal abortions in the U.S. kept increasing at the same rate **after** \* Roe\* as they did before it. In fact, there was a steeper rise between 1969-71 (pre-Roe) than after the Supreme Court’s decision. Perhaps you missed the part where I said, “The Alan Guttmacher report shows that abortions increased dramatically as states first started liberalizing the abortion laws in 1970…” In other words, the increase coincided with the date at which 15 states first legalized abortion. The abortion rate continued to increase in the years to come, even after Roe v. Wade. Why didn’t the rate increase more dramatically after 1972? Possibly because the remaining 35 states were less supportive of abortion. Or possibly because the number of abortions _per annum_ would have levelled off in 1972 had the Roe v. Wade not been passed. The point remains, though… abortions most certainly increased in frequency after they were legalized, and this trend continued for approximately a decade. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/15 "2006-02-13T05:14:57Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > ISo it’s hard to see that making abortion legally available across the nation (at least in theory) caused a big spike in the number of abortions (of course illegal abortions, with their attendant greatly heightened risk of sepsis, pain, sterility and death, undoubtedly fell sharply). Perhaps you missed my reply to **Khan** on that matter. Are you suggesting that Planned Parenthood was incorrect when they said that abortions in the 1960s were safe and conducted primarily by licensed physicians? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/16 "2006-02-13T05:28:05Z")
I’ll bet that there was a significant drop in the number of infanticides after abortion was legalized and made widely available, but I imagine it would be hard to come up with a reasonable estimate as the numbers on infanticides would surely be seriously underreported. As to the OP: Sure, outlawing things works, from the POV of people who want a cheap hit of moral superiority. They have “done something” about the problem. The bad people will be punished. All is well. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/17 "2006-02-13T06:40:20Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > To get back towards the subject of the OP, I don’t think one can generalize and say that because a law doesn’t stop something from occurring, it has no effective deterrent value. When it comes to “sin” laws, it’s arguable that while one can’t stop illegal drug use, prostitution and gambling, one can keep something of a lid on it and prevent a degree of societal harm. The real debate comes when it’s recognized that some of these laws spawn more trouble than they’re worth in the form of corruption and encouragement of organized crime. Ditto. Yes making things illegal does work to some degree. As widespread as drugs currently are, is there any doubt that they’d be vastly more popular if they were perfectly legal? Call me naive, but for the most part I think we’re still a law-abiding society. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/18 "2006-02-13T07:32:35Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Ditto. > > Yes making things illegal does work to some degree. As widespread as drugs currently are, is there any doubt that they’d be vastly more popular if they were perfectly legal? Call me naive, but for the most part I think we’re still a law-abiding society. Making certain drugs legal and taxing them to provide money for rehabs clinics in the way that the Netherlands does is effective isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/19 "2006-02-13T07:52:00Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > Making certain drugs legal and taxing them to provide money for rehabs clinics in the way that the Netherlands does is effective isn’t it? The question, as I understood it, is not whether making something illegal is necessarily the _best_ method, but whether or not it does, more or less, work. I don’t know how that system works in the Netherlands, but it may well be a better alternative – or not. If marijuana, for one example, was made legal but heavily taxed (to fund rehab clinics or whatnot) I still think it would make pot much more widespread than it already is. On a personal level, I can say that if pot was legal, no matter how heavily it was taxed, I’d be more likely to use it. Given its current illegality, even though I’m interested in it, I really don’t feel like going to the bother of finding a dealer, sneaking it around, and risking getting a criminal record on the off-chance I got caught. And that’s just pot, the most common and, increasingly, the most accepted of illegal drugs. But if I could just pop down to the local Eckerds and buy some – sure, I’d probably go for it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171/20 "2006-02-13T17:34:01Z")
> [@](#): > > With drugs, it seems pretty obvious that that’s not working. I’m from South Carolina, and if I see people doing coke and X on a regular basis, it seems like it could only be more prevalent in other areas. What is making drugs illegal doing? > > I’m not saying that we should just make all of this legal, but I’m curious what other approaches are there? What does making something illegal do? Making a drug illegal does have an effect. For a large number of people, probably a majority in most cases, there’s a huge mental gap between legality and illegality. There are many people who simply set their standards of right and wrong based on what the government does and doesn’t allow. How many people in the United States use any illegal drug on a daily basis? How does that compare to the number of people using legal pleasure drugs (tobacco and alcohol) on a regular basis? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-drugs-etc-does-making-things-illegal-work/344171.md?page=2)