# (Abortion) Faulty "Just stop having sex when you wouldn't welcome a baby" - argument **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759 "2019-05-30T09:06:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/21 "2019-06-01T13:24:42Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > To me, having an abortion should be a measure of last resort, in extremis; I find it distasteful, to put it mildly, as a routine form of backup birth control. But I leave that up to the woman’s choice. What it should not be is an unthinking choice. I agree. > [@robardin](#): > > I am amazingly glad my GF-now-wife had the forethought to put that issue on the table at Stage Zero. " **If we have sex and I get pregnant, I am carrying the baby to term. Are you prepared for that?"** Is something every man should consider as a possibility, and then to be honest with himself and with the woman about the answer, and then to act accordingly: “Yes, and I’d support the child”, “Yes, but you’d be on your own”, “No, I can’t be in that position”. > > As would be the opposite, for the woman: “if I get pregnant by you…”, would she say “…I would not keep the child (but would give it up for adoption, perhaps to me)”, or “…I would abort it?” And would either statement be OK with me, as the man? After all, equally important as part of a “woman’s right to choose” is indeed “to choose life”, despite that phrase’s use as an anti-abortion-rights slogan. > . I think if ALL couples did this the abortion rate would be way down. Look at the movies where couples bang away with no birth control and almost never have an unintended pregnancy. I’m thinking of sex scenes like in “Titanic”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/22 "2019-06-01T14:21:45Z")
This isn’t totally related to the OP, but here goes. Apparently people think birth control is 100% effective. Even educated, progressive people believe this. I was talking to a friend the other day and she said there was “no excuse” for women to get abortions, given all the contraceptive options out there. I had to explain to her that birth control isn’t fool-proof. If you’re on the pill and you skip a couple of days, then you might just find a “fool” growing in your uterus one day. Condoms break. Plan B apparently doesn’t work if you’re overweight. Not everyone can do IUDs due to side effects. I was conceived by a mother who was on birth control. If my father had worn a condom, I probably wouldn’t be here. But since the responsibility was placed solely on my mother’s shoulders, babbies happened. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/23 "2019-06-01T14:48:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This isn’t totally related to the OP, but here goes. > > Apparently people think birth control is 100% effective. Even educated, progressive people believe this. I was talking to a friend the other day and she said there was “no excuse” for women to get abortions, given all the contraceptive options out there. > > I had to explain to her that birth control isn’t fool-proof. If you’re on the pill and you skip a couple of days, then you might just find a “fool” growing in your uterus one day. Condoms break. Plan B apparently doesn’t work if you’re overweight. Not everyone can do IUDs due to side effects. Very true. The typical succes rate for typical pill use is only 91 procent; of 100 women on the pill, 9 will get pregnant per year. [Can you get pregnant while on the pill: 5 ways it can happen](http://medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322799.php) Condooms are even less reliable: 14% of users will have an unwanted pregnancy in a year use. [https://www.emedicinehealth.com/ask\_how\_often\_do\_condoms\_fail/article\_em.htm#doctors\_response](https://www.emedicinehealth.com/ask_how_often_do_condoms_fail/article_em.htm#doctors_response) There are also some very typical mistakes made due to ignorance, even with highly educated people. Lots of people get pregnant because the condom breaks, because they used the condom together with (massage) oil, lotion or any kind of cream. [https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/teens/ask-experts/why-cant-you-use-baby-oil-with-a-condom](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/teens/ask-experts/why-cant-you-use-baby-oil-with-a-condom) I myself got an abotrion at 7 weeks because the condom broke ( oil, yes) AND the morning afer pill didn’t work. Lots of people don’t know that the morning after pill only delays ovulation; when the egg is already there, it won’t do jack shit. So, more then half the month, the morning after pill won’t work. And yet people will take it and think they’ve solved the problem. Sex ed is criminally lacking there. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/24 "2019-06-01T14:50:40Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Just don’t have sex” should really just be “don’t have vaginal intercourse.” There’s plenty of sex to be had with other people that just involves hands/mouth. Tell that to men. [Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies | by Gabrielle Blair | Human Parts](https://humanparts.medium.com/men-cause-100-of-unwanted-pregnancies-eb0e8288a7e5) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/25 "2019-06-01T16:19:20Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Tell that to men. [Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies | by Gabrielle Blair | Human Parts](https://humanparts.medium.com/men-cause-100-of-unwanted-pregnancies-eb0e8288a7e5) I thought I just did. We (men) each have more control over our own sperm than anyone else does. One need not forgo sex unless one has a Bill Clinton definition of “sexual relations”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/26 "2019-06-01T18:37:32Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I thought I just did. We (men) each have more control over our own sperm than anyone else does. One need not forgo sex unless one has a Bill Clinton definition of “sexual relations”. I was thinking exactly the same thing after I posted last night. Just imagine the advertising campaign ! Anal or oral if you want to be moral! Plus a bunch of others I wouldn’t want to post outside the pit. If these guys are sincere they’d put their money where her mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/27 "2019-06-01T18:58:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I was conceived by a mother who was on birth control. If my father had worn a condom, I probably wouldn’t be here. But since the responsibility was placed solely on my mother’s shoulders, babbies happened. Well… I’m living proof that condoms don’t always work, either… ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/28 "2019-06-01T21:07:12Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Tell that to men. [Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies | by Gabrielle Blair | Human Parts](https://humanparts.medium.com/men-cause-100-of-unwanted-pregnancies-eb0e8288a7e5) That article’s title is _Men Cause 100% Of Unwanted Pregnancies._ The author describes herself in the opening line as “a mother of six and a Mormon.” I don’t know what Mormonism teaches women to believe about sex, but she has a warped concept about lust and women if she thinks women have 0% participation in the decision to have sex. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/29 "2019-06-01T22:24:54Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > That article’s title is _Men Cause 100% Of Unwanted Pregnancies._ The author describes herself in the opening line as “a mother of six and a Mormon.” I don’t know what Mormonism teaches women to believe about sex, but she has a warped concept about lust and women if she thinks women have 0% participation in the decision to have sex. This is one of those cases where actually reading the article is helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/30 "2019-06-01T22:26:02Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I thought I just did. We (men) each have more control over our own sperm than anyone else does. One need not forgo sex unless one has a Bill Clinton definition of “sexual relations”. I see and yes, you are right. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/31 "2019-06-02T00:10:22Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > “Just don’t have sex” should really just be “don’t have vaginal intercourse.” There’s plenty of sex to be had with other people that just involves hands/mouth. And huzzah for that. though about 60 or so percent of the men I have lain with refuse to perform cunilingus though they expected fellatio. > [@BigT](#): > > I could definitely see people believing that the risk of having a baby is the only thing that would keep women from not having sex all the time and not contributing to the rest of society. I mean, women don’t have a refractory period. > . Speak for yourself, I need at lest 10 or 15 minutes after release or it is still so sensitive as to become painfully overstimulated. > [@monstro](#): > > This isn’t totally related to the OP, but here goes. > > Apparently people think birth control is 100% effective. Even educated, progressive people believe this. I was talking to a friend the other day and she said there was “no excuse” for women to get abortions, given all the contraceptive options out there. > > I had to explain to her that birth control isn’t fool-proof… 3 unfinished pregnancies orthonovum dont work orthonovum dont work rubber broke tubal ligation didnt work And yes I was taking it correctly, using the rubbers correctly and not on any antibiotics, and I am guessing a board certified surgeon with several hundred tubals under his belt [heh] got it right … ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/32 "2019-06-02T02:49:13Z")
Talk to obstetricians and they will talk of delivering condom babies, pill babies, sponge babies, and even vasectomy babies. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/33 "2019-06-02T15:22:18Z")
After reading the entire thread, I wonder what direction it would have taken if the very root of the idea that one should abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy hadn’t been missed completely. It isn’t about responsibility for a child or the options avilable for birth control, or religion really, it’s about self control. Another way to say it is; Don’t let your urges drive your life where you don’t want it to go. Develop mastery of your body and mind so that you can be successful in all areas of life. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/34 "2019-06-02T17:19:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I agree. > I think if ALL couples did this the abortion rate would be way down. Look at the movies where couples bang away with no birth control and almost never have an unintended pregnancy. I’m thinking of sex scenes like in “Titanic”. I had assumed, and a quick check says that internet speculation agrees, that she was carrying his child when she got to ellis island. I actually had thought that that had been made explicit, that the granddaughter was descended from him, as that was the impression that I got off of my first (and close to only) watching of that film. Not about to go back and watch it again, but that’s not a great example. In fact, I’d say that quite a number of the media portrayed examples of people banging away, even if is just the one time, end up in pregnancy. > [@DorkVader](#): > > After reading the entire thread, I wonder what direction it would have taken if the very root of the idea that one should abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy hadn’t been missed completely. > > It isn’t about responsibility for a child or the options avilable for birth control, or religion really, it’s about self control. > Another way to say it is; Don’t let your urges drive your life where you don’t want it to go. Develop mastery of your body and mind so that you can be successful in all areas of life. Good for you and yours. Now, since obviously the public policy of “Take control of yourself” has been tried for thousands of years, and still has yet to have ever worked, did you have any practical suggestions to deal with the reality of the situation? ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/35 "2019-06-02T18:27:15Z")
Never said it was a practical solution. The op and the post that immediately follow start off with a premise that is false, that sex is an uncontrollable drive, or rather that mankind is unable to stop itself from having sex [with an implied “whenever the urge arises”] I just wondered how the thread would have looked if it hadn’t been started that way. A practical solution? Sure, teach sex ed, make it compulsory with no exceptions for any reason, start young, hm, not really certain what age would be best but jr. high/middle school at the latest, high school is too late. Teach not only about the how and why of pregnancy, but the facts about ALL forms of contraception, what types of sexual contact will NOT result in pregnancy and couple that with some sort of class that teaches and emphasizes self control and discipline (oops wait, that sounds a little too close to religion). Do this nationwide and wait a generation or two or three for the teen pregnancy rate to start dropping ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/36 "2019-06-02T19:04:56Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > Don’t let your urges drive your life where you don’t want it to go. . What if where you want to go is somewhere that involves sex? Not to mention that “where you want to go” must be driven by some urge or other. “Want” is an urge. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/37 "2019-06-02T19:20:01Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What if where you want to go is somewhere that involves sex? > > Not to mention that “where you want to go” must be driven by some urge or other. “Want” is an urge. For your first statement, great then there isn’t a problem with controlling yourself. For the second part, …? Is there a point here? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/38 "2019-06-02T19:50:26Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > Never said it was a practical solution. The op and the post that immediately follow start off with a premise that is false, that sex is an uncontrollable drive, or rather that mankind is unable to stop itself from having sex [with an implied “whenever the urge arises”] I just wondered how the thread would have looked if it hadn’t been started that way. I don’t know that that is the premise of the OP. I don’t see anyone saying that is an uncountable drive. If it actually were, then humanity would be just a long form orgy and we wouldn’t get anything done. The premise of the OP is that attempting to control other’s sex drives is impractical or impossible. That I agree with. > [@](#): > > A practical solution? Sure, teach sex ed, make it compulsory with no exceptions for any reason, start young, hm, not really certain what age would be best but jr. high/middle school at the latest, high school is too late. Teach not only about the how and why of pregnancy, but the facts about ALL forms of contraception, what types of sexual contact will NOT result in pregnancy and couple that with some sort of class that teaches and emphasizes self control and discipline (oops wait, that sounds a little too close to religion). Do this nationwide and wait a generation or two or three for the teen pregnancy rate to start dropping I have no problem starting in pre-school. Kids who don’t know what sex is don’t know when they are being sexually abused, nor what resources are available to make it stop and remove the abuser from vulnerable populations. The teen pregnancy rate [_has_ been dropping](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/29/why-is-the-teen-birth-rate-falling/). And much faster than waiting a generation or three. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/39 "2019-06-02T20:50:41Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > For your first statement, great then there isn’t a problem with controlling yourself. There’s a problem with people who are arguing ‘just don’t have sex’. (And actually, people who want to have sex do generally control themselves, both in that most don’t have sex with wildly inappropriate people, and that most don’t have it in/at wildly inappropriate places/times.) > [@DorkVader](#): > > For the second part, …? Is there a point here? Yes. That ‘Don’t let your urges drive your life where you don’t want it to go’, as a general statement, doesn’t make much sense; because it basically says ‘don’t let your urges drive your life to where your urges don’t want it to go’. – though I suppose if you specify different urges, then it can make sense; or if you specify time spans etc. But I think a lot of people who say things like that think of their desires for whatever they’re approving as entirely rational, and only of desires for the disapproved as being “urges”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/40 "2019-06-02T23:26:20Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > Never said it was a practical solution. The op and the post that immediately follow start off with a premise that is false, that sex is an uncontrollable drive, or rather that mankind is unable to stop itself from having sex [with an implied “whenever the urge arises”] I just wondered how the thread would have looked if it hadn’t been started that way. Sex being uncontrollable in the sense that we do it in the road is a strawman. Uncontrollable in the sense that people do stupid things for sex is a fact for many people, as tons of sex scandals tell us. There also seems to be a hidden assumption that this uncontrolled sex is outside of marriage and is thus illicit for certain religions. But the “problem” extends within marriage also. I know the official Catholic position is to abstain from sex until there is no chance or pregnancy, but that hasn’t worked very well and most Catholics reject it. Given that not even priests can control their sex drives, it is doubtful anyone else can. So the position, being stupid on the face of it (dare I say fucking stupid?) got rejected out of hand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759.md?page=3)