# (Abortion) Faulty "Just stop having sex when you wouldn't welcome a baby" - argument **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2019, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759 "2019-05-30T09:06:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/41 "2019-06-03T00:42:57Z")
First, I need to correct something, I originally said the op and second post, that was incorrect. I was actually thinking of the second and third post, but somehow got it mixed up. Ok, now then, in reverse, so priests and other child molesters choose to act on their impulses, so what? Quit trying to tell me I’m saying something I’m clearly not saying. People are quite capable of controlling their drive for sex, and not letting it control their lives. The “in the road” bit is indeed a strawman, of your own creation. The rest of your post about extramarital or other forms of “illicit” sex is, I suppose, one interpretation. One that is perhaps common among most of your peers. You’re correct in that rejection of the premise of self control is fucking stupid. Thorny, I’m not sure where the disconnect is, you say I’m not making sense to you and the reverse is also true. I’m getting a word salad from you but nothing that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/42 "2019-06-03T05:25:06Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > First, I need to correct something, I originally said the op and second post, that was incorrect. I was actually thinking of the second and third post, but somehow got it mixed up. > > Ok, now then, in reverse, so priests and other child molesters choose to act on their impulses, so what? Quit trying to tell me I’m saying something I’m clearly not saying. People are quite capable of controlling their drive for sex, and not letting it control their lives. The “in the road” bit is indeed a strawman, of your own creation. The rest of your post about extramarital or other forms of “illicit” sex is, I suppose, one interpretation. One that is perhaps common among most of your peers. You’re correct in that rejection of the premise of self control is fucking stupid. > > Thorny, I’m not sure where the disconnect is, you say I’m not making sense to you and the reverse is also true. I’m getting a word salad from you but nothing that makes sense. The premise that others will listen to your demands that they have “self control” in order to satisfy your sense of morality is what is being rejected. People have plenty of self control, they just don’t care what you think of them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/43 "2019-06-03T06:32:08Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > First, I need to correct something, I originally said the op and second post, that was incorrect. I was actually thinking of the second and third post, but somehow got it mixed up. > > Ok, now then, in reverse, so priests and other child molesters choose to act on their impulses, so what? Quit trying to tell me I’m saying something I’m clearly not saying. People are quite capable of controlling their drive for sex, and not letting it control their lives. The “in the road” bit is indeed a strawman, of your own creation. The rest of your post about extramarital or other forms of “illicit” sex is, I suppose, one interpretation. One that is perhaps common among most of your peers. You’re correct in that rejection of the premise of self control is fucking stupid. > > Thorny, I’m not sure where the disconnect is, you say I’m not making sense to you and the reverse is also true. I’m getting a word salad from you but nothing that makes sense. As has been mentioned above, the history of the human race is the history of people not controlling their sex drives. You think Romeo and Juliet is pure fantasy? Heloise and Abelard? Back in the old days the penalty was much greater than it is today, and they still couldn’t control it. No doubt those with low sex drives (like St. Paul, it seems) think it is a simple thing to control. Why do you think abstinence based education - which is based on the principle of control - fails so miserably? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/44 "2019-06-03T13:30:21Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > It isn’t about responsibility for a child or the options avilable for birth control, or religion really, it’s about self control. > Another way to say it is; Don’t let your urges drive your life where you don’t want it to go. Develop mastery of your body and mind so that you can be successful in all areas of life. > [@DorkVader](#): > > Never said it was a practical solution. The op and the post that immediately follow start off with a premise that is false, that sex is an uncontrollable drive, or rather that mankind is unable to stop itself from having sex [with an implied “whenever the urge arises”] I just wondered how the thread would have looked if it hadn’t been started that way. This argument suffers from a common problem. I’m going to call it the Micro/Macro Fallacy. One does not arrive at a Macro level solution by implementing Micro level solutions a million times over. “Don’t have sex tonight” “Control your urges” is reasonable advice for one person, one time. What it is not, is reasonable advice for many people, many times. You can’t repeat this advice millions and millions of times and expect that it will be heeded. You especially cannot set public policy on the unending repetition of this advice. There are too many different people, who interact in too many different ways, under too many different situations to even hope that this advice can work. Public policy has to be a Macro level solution, designed from the start with the appreciation of the way large populations of people act. Such as, they WILL have sex. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/45 "2019-06-03T14:01:41Z")
“And if you don’t want to be fat, stop eating so much.” “And if you have to get up early, don’t stay up so late.” People will often go for the momentary pleasure without thinking of future consequences. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/46 "2019-06-03T14:14:00Z")
> [@DorkVader](#): > > Thorny, I’m not sure where the disconnect is Me neither. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/47 "2019-06-03T15:19:19Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > The typical succes rate for typical pill use is only 91 procent; of 100 women on the pill, 9 will get pregnant per year. [Can you get pregnant while on the pill: 5 ways it can happen](http://medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322799.php) > > Condooms are even less reliable: 14% of users will have an unwanted pregnancy in a year use. [https://www.emedicinehealth.com/ask\_how\_often\_do\_condoms\_fail/article\_em.htm#doctors\_response](https://www.emedicinehealth.com/ask_how_often_do_condoms_fail/article_em.htm#doctors_response) I’vve always looked a little askance at those statistics. They feel like the one, “50% of marriages end in divorce” yet a far greater percentage of the friends around you are happily married for the first time. With all the jillions of women on BC pills, nine out of a hundred getting pregnant would be jillions of births and/or abortions more than we have. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/48 "2019-06-04T15:24:20Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > “And if you don’t want to be fat, stop eating so much.” > “And if you have to get up early, don’t stay up so late.” > > People will often go for the momentary pleasure without thinking of future consequences. Came across this image in Dan Savage this morning.[Two-click](https://media2.fdncms.com/stranger/imager/u/large/40349314/1559257616-img_1901.jpg) rule, just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/49 "2019-06-04T18:28:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I feel it is the attitude that one should be responsible for themselves, including the children they create. Aborting a fetus IS being responsible for it. Permanently. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/50 "2019-06-04T18:56:46Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Came across this image in Dan Savage this morning.[Two-click](https://media2.fdncms.com/stranger/imager/u/large/40349314/1559257616-img_1901.jpg) rule, just in case. He forgot livers. [/Portnoy] ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759/51 "2019-06-04T20:48:51Z")
The problem I’m seeing here, and often see in these conversations, is the idea that sex, except for having kids, is purely and simply about pleasure. And, since most of us live in the U.S. where our puritanical roots say that something that is just for pleasure is wrong, then having sex when you aren’t prepared to have children is sinful. Point the first - sexual pleasure isn’t simple, like say, eating cotton candy. Our bodies are wired to want sex -but, because it’s a bio-chemical wiring, there’s a wide range of variation in how strong the wiring is. Maybe for some, it’s like eating cotton candy, or even eating cotton candy when you aren’t much of a sweets person. But for others, it’s more the like pleasure of eating a nutritious and filling meal when we are really hungry. For yet another group, it may be closer to taking off boots that are too tight. Or the pleasure of taking a hot shower when you’re really dirty. I wouldn’t be surprised if for some, it’s like the pleasure you get when someone recognizes that you did something well. You see? Pleasure isn’t simple, or something we can just choose to do without. It is what drives us so that we don’t have to think through every single action we do, up to and including things at such a granular level as remaining upright when we’re walking. It is part and parcel of what keeps all animals doing what needs to be done to survive and thrive. Point the second - sexual pleasure between couples isn’t just fun - it strengthens the bonds that hold the couple together. It is just as important as treating each other well, doing (non-sexual) things together, and supporting each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-faulty-just-stop-having-sex-when-you-wouldnt-welcome-a-baby-argument/834759.md?page=2)