Abortion for Men!

The BBQ Pit
41

Phil, thank you for your sincere apology. I don’t mind being argued with when it’s my own words, but don’t want to have to defend someone else’s words as well as my own. :slight_smile:

Your comments about choices in dealing with the consequences of the risks we take strike me as better applied to the abortion debate. (Let’s not argue abortion here, since we both know that we are on opposite sides of that debate. :-)) Seems to me in the debate at hand what Stoidela is saying is that the man should have the choice of not dealing with the consequences at all, but of simply walking away.

The pregnancy is the potential consequence of the sex; nobody should be able to just walk away from it by saying “I didn’t want it!” Nobody wants the broken leg or broken neck either, but you can’t just walk away from it by saying that you don’t want it, you have to deal with it. If you aren’t prepared to accept the (however slight) risk that something is going to bring you consequences you don’t want to deal with, then don’t risk it. Be mature enough to accept the consequences and deal with them if they do happen. And “deal with them” doesn’t mean just walking away and leaving your offspring to fend for itself. I stand by my opinion that it would be a selfish, gutless thing to do, a path walked only by the lowest of the low.

Incidentally, as an aside (and not as a troll!) I’m curious about something. This isn’t directed to Phil; I don’t want to attribute opinions to him that I’m not sure that he has! <g>

So manny times in discussions of monogamy and of evolution, etc., we’ve heard comments to the effect that, “naturally,” men want to spread their seed around and impregnate as manny women as possible (thus explaining a perceived male tendency to, um, sleep around), versus the woman’s desire to keep the man around and have him help provide for their child. Both gender’s actions are supposedly spurred by evolution and a desire to populate the species. Thus, arguably, a man has maybe half an hour (if that!) initially invested in any given seed that he plants, and perhaps each individual seed is not as important as is the idea of spreading it and lots of its friends around, but a woman has nine months invested before she gets to a single child, and realistically cannot expect to give birth to as manny children as a man can sire.

This is pure speculation, mind you, but wouldn’t such a theory be consistent with a finding that MOST (not ALL) deadbeat parents are the dads? And that MOST of the single parents are moms? (Again, not all! I know about the anecdotal cases where the dad is single parent and the mom is the deadbeat, okay? But statistically the signigicantly greater numbers of single parents are moms and deadbeats are dads.) From such a standpoint, the male is most interested in spreading his seed as far and wide as possible, without necessarily giving thought to any individual seed, whereas the mom is most interested in the small number of children she gives birth to.

Just a passing thought.

-Melin

I’m a woman phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That’s me
(Maya Angelou)

42

Stoidela wrote:

{{{"I’m gonna ask this one more time, and maybe you can give me an answer:

What is the logical, moral, ethical, motional and legal difference between a woman saying, upon the birth of her unwanted child:

“I don’t want this kid. I can’t pay for it, I didn’t plan on it, and I don’t want it in my
life. Here, State, take it off my hands and give it to someone who cares, cuz it
ain’t me. Bye!”

And a MAN saying the same thing?"}}}
Y’know, I’m gonna go out on a limb here for a minute. Putting biology aside (which is kinda foolish in a discussion like this), I will point out that, from a legal point of view, once that baby IS born the man and the woman are in the same position. She can give up her parental rights to it, but she can’t necessarily eliminate her legal and financial obligations to it strictly on her own whim. If the father wants, he can take custody of the child (may have to have a court proceeding, but he can do it), and then the MOTHER will be paying child support, even if she was hoping to be able to give the kid up for adoption and never have to deal with it again.

-Melin

I’m a woman phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That’s me
(Maya Angelou)

43

Hrmmm … my question is if a woman can choose NOT to parent a child by aborting her pregnancy, why can’t a man choose NOT to parent a child by abaondoning the mother? some of you may say he can, but most courts would say otherwise. :frowning: very interesting topic hahaha … ethics and morales skew things sooo much don’t ya think?

Personally i feel this is an decision that needs to be made on an individual perspective. I myself would never dream of such a thing (abondoning the mother of my child, unwanted or not) so that is all that matters to me. I could care less what others choose to do (until it starts affecting the lives of others ie the childs, OR making me have to pay higher taxes.) Needless to say if it get’s to this point, something has to be done. Not by me however … i’m a fence sitter :slight_smile:

44

Melin:

And that sucks equally. I simply do not undrstand why if ONE parent wants to keep the kid, BOTH parents must.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried challenging this?

Stoidela

45

Stoidela;

I said that people ought to be VERY CAREFUL about who they jump in the sack with. You said that by the time one finds out the true nature of a person, it’s usually too late. This is pretty much my point. If you’re doing the matress mambo after a couple of weeks courtship, you clearly will not know enough to make a decision about that person’s character. How about waiting several months, meeting the family, having them meet your family, etc, etc. Every time someone says, “I didn’t know he/she was like that”, I’d love to ask them how much time and effort they spent trying to find out what kind of person he or she was before they went at it. No doubt it was far less time than they spent swooning.

“I think it would be a great idea” Mohandas Ghandi’s answer when asked what he thought of Western civilization

46

Lucky:

Think about how many women didn’t know their true loves were into beating the shit out of them until after they got married.

hmm.

Stoidela

47

just wanted to respond to some hostility toward something I wrote.
"The day I see discussion of the emotional scars on the male when the female opts for an abortion is the day I’ll seriously consider this as an argument.

We all hear about how traumatic a decision it is for the female, and I don’t dispute that. But, just as the male gets screwed out of any real input into the decision-making process, he also gets completely shoved to the side when the discussion turns to how painful the decision was. Think of all the times you’ve heard this topic discussed, and tell me if you’ve ever once heard the male side of the story - except, of course, for the typical male-bashing, stereotypical, “Yo, man, I tol’ dat bitch to go get an abo’shun” crap you see in child-support propoganda." - Jon
first of all, though I realize that legally the male has no real input in the process before the baby is born, in reality the male does have input. I am willing to bet that in many cases the decision to abort, to keep the baby, or to give the baby up for adoption is one that is made by both parents, or is at least discussed by both parents. I am also willing to bet that if a man vehemently argued for the baby to be kept so he could help raise it he would not go completely unheard. Again, I know this is not always the case and I don’t contend that it is. But I have a hard time buying the idea that a man has absolutely no say in the matter.

And I do not think for a moment that the decision made won’t affect both the man and the woman. That is not what I was trying to say. A child is a creation of both the parents, and any decision regarding its fate can and should involve and effect both parents. However, ultimately, due to the fact that the child is growing inside the mother’s body, the final decision rests with her.

“And I’m sorry, I realize I’m not a woman, but for all of you who contest that a man doesn’t feel it when a woman choses to give up, or abort, his baby, fuck you. That’s as sexist a statement as they come. You have no clue what another person feels or believes, and its ridiculous that one would follow such a sterotype. Talk about ignorant.” - Larsy

First of all, if that “fuck you” was directed at me…well…no thanks, I’ll pass.

Again, I was NOT trying to say that the decision made does not affect the father-to-be. It does. However, there is no way on earth that a man can feel the SAME feelings as a woman does, or that it will affect him in the same way. When he has to go through the surgery and deal with the after-effects of it maybe he can claim the same feelings and scars. When a man can carry a baby in his body for nine months, and then go through the physical exertion/pain of labor, then I’ll believe that.

Before you jump all over me and tell me how ignorant and sexist I am, let me again clarify that I am not saying the decision made does not affect the man. I am just saying that it can not possibly affect him in the same way it affects the woman. This is not to say that his pain/joy/fear/whatever is any less - it’s just different.
(btw, Stoidela - I too had an abortion when I was younger. Not everyone is as passive about it as you. Though it does not haunt me, nor do I regret it, it did and does affect my life, though in subtle ways - just as any decision of that magnitude would impact my life. I don’t think it’s good for you to assume that just because something hasn’t impacted your life at all that it won’t/doesn’t impact anyone else’s)

anyway, this has been interesting, but I have the feeling it is simply another one of those arguments where each side has its fixed views and nothing the other anyone says or does will change those views. In other words, it’s pointless to continue arguing (at least for me it is).

48

And I didn’t.

Here’s the quote from me:

Stoidela

49

ah…must have missed that part.

Sorry - been a long day/week/month/life =)

50

Stoidela wrote:

{{{And that sucks equally. I simply do not undrstand why if ONE parent wants to keep the kid, BOTH parents must.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried challenging this?}}}
We’re not talking about “keeping” the kid, we’re talking about accepting responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. This isn’t some universe of “it feels good, I’m gonna do it, and I’m not going to account for anybody or anything that gets hurt as a result of it.” The woman and the man BOTH made that baby. Both the woman and the man have a moral, ethical, and legal obligation to provide at least the basic necessities of life for that child.

As I said several posts back, the entire evolutionary point of sex (which was described by – was it you? – as the strongest natural urge or drive humans have, with the exception of hunger) is to make babies. You don’t wanna run the risk of making a baby, don’t have sex. If you think you’re mature enough to have sex, then be mature enough to accept the possibility that you are going to have a child, and may run the risk that you have to abort, adopt out, or support that child. Your choice comes at the point BEFORE you conceive that child, not after. Whether you are male or female.

This attitude of “I can do whatever I want and shouldn’t have to ever have to account for it” really pisses me off. It’s the cause of a great deal of evil and sorrow in this world, and of TRUE injustice, not the “poor little whiny old me” scenario of the man who wanted to get laid and now doesn’t want to pay child support that you have set forth. “I’m bored – entertain me.” “I’m horny, fuck me.” “We did it together, but I don’t want to have to deal with it so you deal with it, it’s not my problem.” Y’know what? I’d just as soon people like that didn’t reproduce anyway.

-Melin

I’m a woman phenomenally
Phenomenal woman
That’s me
(Maya Angelou)

51

You know what really pisses ME off? Kids being raised by people who don’t really want to be doing it, resent it, and aren’t very good at it. Kids being made to feel as though they are a burden instead of a joy. Kids coming into this world as a “price” someone has to “pay”.

Like I mentioned earlier, Norplan for all the women at puberty, and licensing before you can have it removed!!

H

Stoidela

52

You do realize the difference between “raised by people who don’t want to be doing it, resent it, and aren’t very good at it” compared with “providing financial support”, don’t you?

If either parent decides to keep the baby, the other should be responsible to help support him financially. Afterall, there are two people who made this child. Two people should be responsible for taking care of it. I sure as hell didn’t knock up the woman, why should my tax dollars be increased to cover additional public assistance programs that would come from the surge of deadbeat parents who are given the chance to back out of their duties.

Instead of the “Perhaps if the law didn’t let her, SHE might think twice.” mentality, why don’t we tighten down the child support laws and make the MAN think twice. Same concept but a lot less damaging to the child and to the welfare system. Again, if this isn’t an option the man can live with, he shouldn’t take the risk.

(BTW Melin, you took the words right out of my mouth and made them sound so much better than I would have. Deadbeat parents are scum.)

Let’s put a little twist on the topic. Say that a parent is given the right to turn his back on his responsibilities and then 10-15-20 years down the road after contributing nothing to the raising of this child, that parent decides that mid-life is kind of lonely. He wants to come back into the life of his kids. Then what? Does he get a new set of rights?

>^,^<
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

53

You do realize the difference between “raised by people who don’t want to be doing it, resent it, and aren’t very good at it” compared with “providing financial support”, don’t you?

If either parent decides to keep the baby, the other should be responsible to help support him financially. Afterall, there are two people who made this child. Two people should be responsible for taking care of it. I sure as hell didn’t knock up the woman, why should my tax dollars be increased to cover additional public assistance programs that would come from the surge of deadbeat parents who are given the chance to back out of their duties.

Instead of the “Perhaps if the law didn’t let her, SHE might think twice.” mentality, why don’t we tighten down the child support laws and make the MAN think twice. Same concept but a lot less damaging to the child and to the welfare system. Again, if this isn’t an option the man can live with, he shouldn’t take the risk.

(BTW Melin, you took the words right out of my mouth and made them sound so much better than I would have. Deadbeat parents are scum.)

Let’s put a little twist on the topic. Say that a parent is given the right to turn his back on his responsibilities and then 10-15-20 years down the road after contributing nothing to the raising of this child, that parent decides that mid-life is kind of lonely. He wants to come back into the life of his kids. Then what? Does he get a new set of rights?

>^,^<
KITTEN

He who walk through airport door sideways going to Bangkok. - Confucius

54

Lucky,

My apologies for not making my post clearer. My point was that babies should not be considered the price to be paid for having sex. Sex should not always have to result in conception. I know that the sex drive exists to perpetuate the species, but there are other drives that we humans had that once were useful for survival that we now are trying to eliminate in order to further improve.

Stoidela, are you sure about what you said about Norplant? Some of us (me) experienced some bad side effects (in my case, a 50 lb weight gain that was hell to lose!) and big problems with removal. How about just better access to contraceptives, like making insurance companies pay for it (after all, they currently pay for Viagra!!).
And licensing before you get it removed? So what criteria does one have to pass before they can get pregnant? Just as I don’t (and shouldn’t) have any say over who gets an abortion, no one should have the right to decide if someone is ready to have a baby.

PR (ok, I’m ready to have this baby, but little guy isn’t taking the hint…arrgh!)

55

Sure I’m sure…but what difference does it make? I don’t make the rules…

Stoidela

56

Ya know, I really try to be nice to everyone, even when I am debating, but this was a low blow.

There is ALL the comparison, did you know that at just 2 months you were already forming bone, arms and legs, and a beating heart? What happened to yours PL? Just because you are not out of the womb, does NOT make you any less human or have any less right to life, at that stage you are developing and most vulnerable. I cannot believe any woman would willingly make such a cold decision just because she simply did not want to be saddled with a child. I did not know that murder was legal for the sake of convienence. In the future do not insult my origin, I think your comment was very rude and uncalled for.

57

Neobican, would it make you feel any better if we all pretended that there is no debate over when life begins? Sorry, no go. The fact that you find differing opinions about reproductive rights surprising in a forum such as this astonishes me.

“When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Hunter Thompson

58

Neo:

I think what he meant was that since you would never have existed, you could not regret not being born.

And maybe you are a little too delicate for the BBQ?

Stoidela

59

I’m having mixed feelings about the father’s right to/right to not discussion, but I’m pretty certain that I don’t agree with licensing in order to have children. The rules on ADOPTING a child are ridiculous enough considering how many orphans (is that the proper term these days?) there are, and the number of people who, aside from not being wealthy, are perfectly capable of loving and raising these children and want to do so. To incur a licensing procedure in order to be allowed to have children would be, IMHO, the same as to censor someone’s right to speak freely or own land (these are the first things that came to mind) There just can’t be anyway to determine whether or not someone is “ready for parenthood” or “capable of taking proper care” of a child legally. I say this especially because these factors are used to describe whether or not said person is financially capable. I do realize that you specifically said “psychological examination”, but who determines the psychological aptitude of someone to care for a child? Knowing the people that we tend to put in authority over such situations, I don’t think I trust someone else to make that decision for me.

Stoidela, you stated that you already knew that “that’s the way it is” and that all you wanted to know was why it is the way it is, and you are absolutely right in stating that we’ve just all been conditioned to accept this type of thing as it is. I’ve never heard of any woman carrying a child that she didn’t want just because the father of that child did want it. I don’t know of any more profound answer to “why”. I don’t think anyone really does.

I understand where you’re coming from regarding the whole “man’s right to not be a parent” thing, but I think we have something like that already…last I knew, anyone who didn’t want to be a parent, male or female, signed over his or her legal rights to be a parent to a particular child. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t quite know how this works, but I would assume that once you do that, it absolves you of any rights and responsibilities to the child in question. Regarding the mention of the man’s right to be a parent when the woman does not wish to be a parent, now that’s a little more difficult. It seems to me that the only person who doesn’t have a choice in the matter is the man who DOES want to raise the baby that’s being carried by the woman who doesn’t. I feel really sorry for that guy, but I can’t come up with any easy solutions. It was probably useless for me to have even posted anything, since I didn’t say anything really meaningful or deep, but I suppose I just needed to open my big mouth. You stated in your first post that you were trying to get some support for your idea, but unfortunately, this group that is usually so easily, evenly divided on whatever topic we happen to be discussion, is seemingly unanimous (or nearly so) regarding this one. Sorry about that.

60

For Slythe and Stoidela-

No, I am not to “delicate” for the pit, I can type all the “fuck yous” but I choose not to use such language as it is not necessary. The rudeness I was referring to was the “who cares?” comment on PLs part. I happen to care a great deal about my life, as do many others. I hold everyones opinion with respect and I refrain from calling them stupid or blatantly disregarding it. I have an idea of what he was trying to say, he just phrased it wrong. To that end, my post was responding to PL, and not to you guys. I happen to really enjoy SDMB and I hope everyone can talk about issues in a more adult manner. I am not trying to “bitch”, but it just seemed PL was hitting me on a personal note.