# Abortion & gay marriage should not even be controversial **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125 "2012-02-07T21:53:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/221 "2012-02-09T20:50:07Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > a) being asleep is not the same thing as being unconscious and people who are asleep do have some awareness (they can hear loud noises, feel pain, etc.). So let’s just remove the asleep people from the equation, hmmm? Click the link. It’s there for a reason. I didn’t just make it up. (Seriously. This is one thing I’ve noticed about this board. Even if you cite something, people will ignore it, call you an idiot and then assert that they’re right. Why, exactly, is that?) > [@](#): > > b) are you really arguing that you can’t imagine what you would want if you were in a coma or anaesthetized? So all those people who make living will that defines what they want to happen to them if they are comatose are … what? Lying? The difference between a fetus and an unconscious person is that one has had thoughts and feelings at some point and could express them in advance. I’ll let you decide which one. You said you cannot imagine being in a situation where you have no thoughts/feelings/consciousness. So can you or can’t you? If you can conceivably imagine what it is to be in a situation where you have no thoughts/feelings/consciousness and envision what you would want to happen to you, then you cannot say you cannot reasonably do this regarding being a fetus (or even a newly born child). > [@](#): > > c) despite this, there are situation in which we do allow unconscious people to be removed from life support and therefore killed. And there are situations where abortion can be deemed permissible. And…? > [@](#): > > Allowing someone to die rather than forcing them to live a miserable existence can be the most humane thing possible, although I know this is something pro-lifers don’t understand. I’m not sure what relation allowing someone to die has to killing someone. > [@](#): > > d) in any case, your family or next of kin generally get to make the call on keeping you alive if you are comatose. You know, just like the woman gets to make the call on whether she gets an abortion. You are trying to paint this as though some random people are going to come into the hospital and start shooting comatose people, which is absurd because we’re not talking about random people shooting pregnant women in the stomach. We’re talking about people who are directly involved. Next-of-kin are generally allowed to make end of life decisions when someone is in a persistent vegetative state, brain dead or some state where the hope of recovery is minimal or non-existent. I don’t know the law exactly, but I would be willing to bet that if-- for whatever reason-- it was known that a comatose individual would regain consciousness and be perfectly healthy on on \ date, or that there was a very good chance of it happening, that his or her next-of-kin would generally not be allowed to decide to pull the proverbial plug. I’ll have to check it out, as I’m now curious. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/222 "2012-02-09T21:26:52Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Click the link. It’s there for a reason. I didn’t just make it up. Okay, I admit that I only glanced at the link and saw that it was titled _Brain function in coma, vegetative state, and related disorders_, so I assumed it was about, you know, brain function during comas, vegetative states, and related disorders. Silly me. I see on closer inspection that the authors do list coma, sleep, and anaesthesia together for some reason but they don’t really go into any other real detail about sleep specifically. Still, sleep is clearly not the same as coma or vegetative state - a person who is asleep can respond to stimulus from the outside world while a person in a coma or vegetative state cannot. Otherwise how do you hear your alarm clock in the morning? Why do you wake up when you need to pee? If I were asleep and someone were to come along and start sawing off my leg, I’d wake up and tell them to knock it off. If I were comatose or brain dead, well, I wouldn’t care. Surely even a moron such as yourself can see the difference. > [@](#): > > You said you cannot imagine being in a situation where you have no thoughts/feelings/consciousness. So can you or can’t you? If you can conceivably imagine what it is to be in a situation where you have no thoughts/feelings/consciousness and envision what you would want to happen to you, then you cannot say you cannot reasonably do this regarding being a fetus (or even a newly born child). Saying ‘what would I like done if I were in a coma’ is like saying ‘what would I like done with my belongings after I die’. Neither one requires you to actually be present at the time, but both rest on you having had thoughts and feelings and emotions at some point. We can write up legal contracts about these things because we are conscious humans who have opinions about things like that, and as a rule the law takes those feelings into account. For example, I feel that I would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, based on cases like Terry Schaivo’s. I think it’s a shame to waste resources that way and to put the family through so much pain, and I wouldn’t want to do that to my family. You don’t have to imagine what it would be like to actually be Terry Schaivo to be able to say ‘no, I don’t think it’s right to keep someone’s body alive like that’. In fact you can’t imagine what it would be like to be her, because there is nobody there to be. Much like imagining you were a fetus, it’s a completely pointless exercise. > [@](#): > > And there are situations where abortion can be deemed permissible. And..? Oh, I see you’re pro-choice now. Glad we got you to see the light. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/223 "2012-02-09T21:28:03Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Perhaps I need to go take a job at Sea World and work with Shamu so I can come back and get your approval. If you do, can you get me an autograph? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/224 "2012-02-09T21:53:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you do, can you get me an autograph? Hey, maybe they’ll even let you ride him. Do you have a ponytail, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/225 "2012-02-09T21:57:05Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Hey, maybe they’ll even let you ride him. Hey, I’m a fan, not a groupie. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/226 "2012-02-09T22:24:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . . . My position is that this is a very complex issue and there is no absolute objective truth. It’s a very simple issue…and there is no absolute objective truth. It’s like Christian trinitarianism: either yes, or no. Damn simple. But the debate has gone on for nearly two thousand years! ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/227 "2012-02-09T23:39:43Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 2.) I spent years-- both in college and two years after it-- working with other people collecting (that means getting on a boat) and > . Can you imagine being on a boat with OMG…a captive audience? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/228 "2012-02-10T00:50:04Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Can you imagine being on a boat with OMG…a captive audience? Ye gods. I do like how he thinks ‘collecting’ automatically means getting on a boat. There’s no collecting without boats! ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/229 "2012-02-10T01:10:30Z")
I missed a couple pages. How did we get to from abortion & gay marriage to marine biology? ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/230 "2012-02-10T01:13:24Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Ye gods. > > I do like how he thinks ‘collecting’ automatically means getting on a boat. There’s no collecting without boats! Maybe I could imagine being a boat, only with feelings, and my captain wants to steer me into a tornado, but first I must throw my mother in law overboard, as she was on the boat only because I kidnapped her, so that she would help me collect a few marine samples, but then she went all victim on me. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/231 "2012-02-10T01:25:58Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Maybe I could imagine being a boat, only with feelings, and my captain wants to steer me into a tornado, but first I must throw my mother in law overboard, as she was on the boat only because I kidnapped her, so that she would help me collect a few marine samples, but then she went all victim on me. Yeah, think about that! You monster! Don’t you see how eeeeevil abortion is now! Wow, I bet this is just like Intro to Philosophy class. We’re so deep and smart. > [@HoboStew](#): > > I missed a couple pages. How did we get to from abortion & gay marriage to marine biology? Eh, it got boring trying to debate the resident moron, so we moved on to generally mockery. It’s the way of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/232 "2012-02-10T01:26:12Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I missed a couple pages. How did we get to from abortion & gay marriage to marine biology? It’s the SDMB. Be glad it’s marine biology and not 20/20 cricket or Hitite poetry. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/233 "2012-02-10T01:49:59Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Okay, I admit that I only glanced at the link and saw that it was titled _Brain function in coma, vegetative state, and related disorders_, so I assumed it was about, you know, brain function during comas, vegetative states, and related disorders. Silly me. I see on closer inspection that the authors do list coma, sleep, and anaesthesia together for some reason but they don’t really go into any other real detail about sleep specifically. The lesson here is to read the whole thing instead of just the title. Glad I could help impart some wisdom. > [@](#): > > Still, sleep is clearly not the same as coma or vegetative state - a person who is asleep can respond to stimulus from the outside world while a person in a coma or vegetative state cannot. Otherwise how do you hear your alarm clock in the morning? Why do you wake up when you need to pee? If I were asleep and someone were to come along and start sawing off my leg, I’d wake up and tell them to knock it off. If I were comatose or brain dead, well, I wouldn’t care. Surely even a moron such as yourself can see the difference. The point, which I can only surmise you purposely ignored, is that the level of consciousness between the states (being asleep, being in a coma or being anesthized) are equivalent; that is, there is none due to there being no awareness nor arousal. If, as has been argued by various posters, the “value” of an individual is dictated by consciousness, then individuals in a coma have no value, people who have been anesthized have no value and every time you fall asleep you lose value, though you regain it once you wake up. Oh, surely you’ll argue that such a conclusion is ridiculous and I’ll agree that it is ridiculous, but you get a ridiculous conclusion when you start from a ridiculous premise. > [@](#): > > Saying ‘what would I like done if I were in a coma’ is like saying ‘what would I like done with my belongings after I die’. Neither one requires you to actually be present at the time, but both rest on you having had thoughts and feelings and emotions at some point. We can write up legal contracts about these things because we are conscious humans who have opinions about things like that, and as a rule the law takes those feelings into account. While that’s great and all, it has nothing to do with your original assertion, which was this (since you’ve forgotten): > [@](#): > > Fetuses do not have opinions and thoughts and feelings, therefore we cannot reasonably put ourselves in their place or reasonably take their desires into account. Fetuses are not the only individuals who do not have thoughts, feelings or opinions. People who are asleep, in a coma or anesthized all fail to meet at least one of these criteria, yet you somehow conclude that you can reasonably put yourself into a position where you can take their desires into account. So which is it? Can you or can’t you? > [@](#): > > For example, I feel that I would not want to be kept alive in a vegetative state, based on cases like Terry Schaivo’s. I think it’s a shame to waste resources that way and to put the family through so much pain, and I wouldn’t want to do that to my family. You don’t have to imagine what it would be like to actually be Terry Schaivo to be able to say ‘no, I don’t think it’s right to keep someone’s body alive like that’. In fact you can’t imagine what it would be like to be her, because there is nobody there to be. Much like imagining you were a fetus, it’s a completely pointless exercise. So you agree that you can do the thing which you said you reasonably could not do? If so, then I pose to you (again!) the question regarding abortion and the veil of ignorance. It doesn’t matter how many times you try to say pass this off as “a completely pointless exercise”, it won’t make it true (especially since it’s an exercise which has been engaged in for decades now, even by pro-choicers). This is really nothing more than an evasive tactic on your part though, as I’ve said many times now, I’m not too terribly surprised. > [@](#): > > Oh, I see you’re pro-choice now. Glad we got you to see the light. If it helps you to feel better, then you can label me as you wish. It won’t make it true, though. …Oh, and I’m still waiting for that explanation. This: > [@Meyer6](#): > > As for this part, I honestly don’t know how else to explain this to you since you either cannot or will not understand. If there are in fact people who are simultaneously saying that abortion should always be \*legal \*and that sex-selective abortion should be _illegal_, well then those people are hypocrites. But you’ve provided no concrete examples of pro-choicers who actually make both those statements. You seem to think this is a ‘gotcha’ for all pro-choicers when in fact it isn’t an opinion held by all pro-choicers. Why don’t I ask you how it is that some pro-lifers have had abortions themselves (the only moral abortion is my abortion). If I reasoned the way you reason I’d say that negates the opinion of all pro-lifers. So explain that. Go on, I’ll wait. Doesn’t cut it. Did you really not read the sites I provided you at all? > [@HoboStew](#): > > I missed a couple pages. How did we get to from abortion & gay marriage to marine biology? Because when an individual can no longer argue the topic, they instead choose to argue a different topic and/or resort to insults. But I’m not pointing that out or anything, because then I’d be accused of having a persecution complex or something 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/234 "2012-02-10T02:01:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, yes, we all appreciate how elegantly you float above the fray in your bubble of self-satisfaction, removed from having to deal with consequences and icky stuff like that. Hardly. I’m saying this is a complicated issue and the people who claim to know the answer with certainty are the ones who are putting themselves above the fray. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/235 "2012-02-10T02:04:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The answer to “we cannot solve this to everyone’s satisfaction” is not “so lets do it my way” I could just as easily say, we can’t resove this so therfore you have no right to kill a fetus. No, my response to “we cannot solve this to everyone’s satisfaction” is to allow everyone to do what they feel is right, and not allow anyone to try to force their beliefs off on others. There is no “so lets do it my way” in the pro-choice side - note that word “choice”, it’s important. > [@](#): > > You don’t think pedophiles feel the same way about their consensual relationships with minors? Pedophiles having a lasting, very negative affect on actual living breathing humans. However, my personal morals say that aborting a fetus is the same thing as cutting off a skin tag, and because of that my morals do not affect any real live humans. Or did you wish to argue that the victims of pedophiles aren’t real humans? > [@](#): > > No they can’t. The state can ban abortion in the third trimester with health exceptions. the state can highly regulate abortions in the second trimester. Shrug. Picky picky. If nothing else, I didn’t say anything about the legality of the choice, just the morals. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/236 "2012-02-10T02:16:04Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Well, in that SSM is a type of marriage, it’s an argument against. But it would be a moot point, it wouldn’t matter if someone recognized SSM or not because it wouldn’t grant any legal benefits, just like the second and later marriages for some Mormon sects. So your argument is against marriage in general, correct? If so, and if you plan on making all existing legal benefits for the currently married null and void, I’m not sure what this has to do with the thread at all. Would you mind explaining in more detail, so I can determine how this all fits together? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/237 "2012-02-10T02:29:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Hardly. I’m saying this is a complicated issue and the people who claim to know the answer with certainty are the ones who are putting themselves above the fray. And you’re colossally, idiotically, choke-on-your-own-tongue wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/238 "2012-02-10T03:01:15Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Can you imagine being on a boat with OMG…a captive audience? Up until a couple of seconds ago, I didn’t believe in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/239 "2012-02-10T03:10:09Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > The lesson here is to read the whole thing instead of just the title. Glad I could help impart some wisdom. I’m not going to read every word of every thing you ever link to. This is a message board, not a research project. If you are so unsure about your own argument or so unable to express it yourself, then maybe you should reconsider how valid it is as an argument. As for the rest, I will just tell you one more time that being asleep or in a coma is not the same thing as being a fetus. I know, I know, you’re going to follow me around saying “but whhyyyyy, WHYYYYYY!”, like I did to my dad when I was five, but you’re just going to have to put on your thinking cap and figure it out for yourself. How about we try this exercise - try to state your position on abortion, with reasons, in three sentences or less. Like so: I believe abortion should be legal in all circumstances because it is unjust to force a woman to incubate a fetus against her will. The fetus has no rights in this situation because it lacks all the qualities that make a person human and thus imbue them with rights. However, even if I did think the fetus was a person (and I don’t), I still wouldn’t concede that it had the right to hijack a woman’s body for it’s own purposes. Can you summarize your position like? Because honestly, you’re all over the map with your ‘thought exercises’ and whatnot. > [@](#): > > Because when an individual can no longer argue the topic, they instead choose to argue a different topic and/or resort to insults. But I’m not pointing that out or anything, because then I’d be accused of having a persecution complex or something 😛 No, because when people argue with idiots it’s sometimes fun to point out that they are idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/240 "2012-02-10T04:02:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Conception is the point at which a genetically distinct organism is created within the womb. One that will result in a human being if all goes according to plan. I am not sure why the physical trauma of gestation and birth are important moral criteria in conferring rights. Because that trauma and pain is what anti-abortionists are demanding be forced upon women. If I’m hungry, is it a violation of your rights for me to beat you into submission and suck your blood? Of course it is; just as it is a violation of their rights to force women to go through pregnancy and childbirth. But after birth? They can just hand the infant off to someone else with no physical trauma, no physical violation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=13)