# Abortion & gay marriage should not even be controversial **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125 "2012-02-07T21:53:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/241 "2012-02-10T04:12:16Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > snip > > I would venture to guess you’re being disingenuous then. As I constantly say to Bryan, you can’t ignore the moral issues involved in abortion, no matter how much you try to wish them away. > > Take, for example, the following issue. You apparently live in Canada. A few weeks back there was a mini-uproar about sex selective abortions, which the prevailing thought being that women should _not_ be allowed to have an abortion because they disliked the sex of their child, and that there should actually be legislation against the practice (no matter how impractical it might be). > > Such a position goes against all the typical pro-choice talking points. Usually, pro-choicers tend to hide behind the “It’s her body!”/“It’s not a person!” lines. Pro-choicers tend to also scoff at the notion that abortions should be prohibited because of some moral worth of the unborn. However, if you throw in some stipulations they don’t like, suddenly none of the aforementioned criteria matter and they start to argue from a distinctly pro-life position. That is, instead of arguing on stuff like bodily autonomy or whether or not the unborn has reached some arbitrary stage of development, they focus on the moral worth of the unborn child and whether or not the woman’s reason for wanting to abort should trump the life of the unborn. > > See the problem there? If it can be argued that it’s wrong to abort for some reasons, then who’s to say that it’s any less wrong to abort for other reasons? If it can be argued that it’s wrong to abort because you wanted a boy rather than a girl, then who’s to say that’s any less wrong than wanting to abort because you simply don’t want to be pregnant or want to take that trip around the world? And thus why the abortion issue won’t go away. At some point in time you’re going to have to address the moral implication involved in abortion, and mindlessly reciting the “It’s her body!”/“It’s not a person!” arguments aren’t much in the way of winners. Would you take a look at the links I put in post #210? They reveal some situations where an abortion makes much more sense, I would think, than going through with the pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/242 "2012-02-10T09:01:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Doesn’t a person stop being a person when it no longer has a mind? I don’t get the distinction you are trying to make. Yes absolutely this is why dead people or fetuses aren’t persons. The situation of a coma patient is a tad trickier because they once had a mind and may get it back. While there is a chance they will return to consciousness they should be treated as people. I know this isn’t black and white which may offend some message board warriors but life is rarely black and white so I have no problem it. Simply put the idea is that minds should not be destroyed. If we kill someone in a coma a mind is definitely lost. If we abort a fetus no mind is lost. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/243 "2012-02-10T11:33:00Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Yes absolutely this is why dead people or fetuses aren’t persons. > > The situation of a coma patient is a tad trickier because they once had a mind and may get it back. While there is a chance they will return to consciousness they should be treated as people. > If we abort a fetus no mind is lost. Not to rain on your parade here, but you do realize that fetuses have a very high likelihood of gaining consciousness just by letting them live. Certainly a much higher chance than your average coma patient. This is not the argument to make when supporting a pro choice position. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/244 "2012-02-10T12:03:47Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not to rain on your parade here, but you do realize that fetuses have a very high likelihood of gaining consciousness just by letting them live. Certainly a much higher chance than your average coma patient. But coma patients had a consciousness at one point and if they are capable of recovery they still have one; it’s simply shut down. As opposed to a fetus, which has nothing. A coma patent capable of recovery is far closer to a sleeping person than they are to a fetus; their consciousness is in abeyance, not nonexistent. You don’t manufacture a whole new personality and set of memories every morning. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/245 "2012-02-10T13:13:58Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > I missed a couple pages. How did we get to from abortion & gay marriage to marine biology? Because if we allow gay marriage, we have to allow whale marriage. And that’s worse than Britney Spears. Besides, they might want abortions. If they want a Plan B, they need so many fucking pills you need a wheelbarrow, and you have to stuff them into all those mackerel, so it makes the whole over-fishing problem that much worse. Why doesn’t anybody but me think of these things? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/246 "2012-02-10T13:40:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because if we allow gay marriage, we have to allow whale marriage. And that’s worse than Britney Spears. Before you go off and marry Shamu, however, I need to tell you: You know blowholes? They’re not what you think they’re for. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/247 "2012-02-10T13:48:37Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Not to rain on your parade here, but you do realize that fetuses have a very high likelihood of gaining consciousness just by letting them live. Certainly a much higher chance than your average coma patient. > > This is not the argument to make when supporting a pro choice position. You miss the point, destroy a fetus and no mind is lost. Kill a coma patient and a mind is definitely lost. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/248 "2012-02-10T14:06:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Before you go off and marry Shamu, however, I need to tell you: > > You know blowholes? They’re not what you think they’re for. We’ll make it work. I’ve got a _lot_ of fish treats. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/249 "2012-02-10T14:53:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But coma patients had a consciousness at one point and if they are capable of recovery they still have one; it’s simply shut down. As opposed to a fetus, which has nothing. A coma patent capable of recovery is far closer to a sleeping person than they are to a fetus; their consciousness is in abeyance, not nonexistent. You don’t manufacture a whole new personality and set of memories every morning. What makes a recovered consciousness inherently more valuable, more worthy of protection, than a new consciousness? ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/250 "2012-02-10T15:55:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But coma patients had a consciousness at one point and if they are capable of recovery they still have one; it’s simply shut down. As opposed to a fetus, which has nothing. A coma patent capable of recovery is far closer to a sleeping person than they are to a fetus; **their consciousness is in abeyance, not nonexistent**. You don’t manufacture a whole new personality and set of memories every morning. I learned a new word this morning from you. Neat - thanks! 🙂 Carry on, please. You were saying something about sleeping people and blowholes? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/251 "2012-02-10T17:09:53Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What makes a recovered consciousness inherently more valuable, more worthy of protection, than a new consciousness? Somebody wants and loves that consciousness that already is. Nobody wants the thing that might grow into consciousness. The recovered consciousness did so without forcing anyone else to do anything they didn’t want to, particularly not risking their health and their life. The possible consciousness must do that in order to attain consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/252 "2012-02-10T17:57:11Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Somebody wants and loves that consciousness that already is. Nobody wants the thing that might grow into consciousness. Sorry, Mr. Loner Coma Patient, you don’t have enough friends or family, so you get to die. I’ll also point out that there are a non-zero number of elective abortions performed on fetuses that would be cared for (and wanted) by the father. > [@](#): > > The recovered consciousness did so without forcing anyone else to do anything they didn’t want to, particularly not risking their health and their life. The possible consciousness must do that in order to attain consciousness. The coma patient uses valuable medical resources that could be redirected to improving the health of other people in need. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/253 "2012-02-10T18:05:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Sorry, Mr. Loner Coma Patient, you don’t have enough friends or family, so you get to die. There is a big difference between “enough” and none. A fetus that is being aborted generally has no one that cares about it. > [@](#): > > I’ll also point out that there are a non-zero number of elective abortions performed on fetuses that would be cared for (and wanted) by the father. Which is why the second part of my post comes into play - no one other than the woman who would have to carry the pregnancy and give birth should be involved in the decision. You would also need to take a hard look at how many of those very few fathers who claim they want the fetus are doing so for other reasons. > [@](#): > > The coma patient uses valuable medical resources that could be redirected to improving the health of other people in need. Same can be said of pregnancy and birth. Not to mention the resources the new life no one wants ends up using. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/254 "2012-02-10T18:08:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Sorry, Mr. Loner Coma Patient, you don’t have enough friends or family, so you get to die. I’ll also point out that there are a non-zero number of elective abortions performed on fetuses that would be cared for (and wanted) by the father. Let the father carry it to term then. Oh wait. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The coma patient uses valuable medical resources that could be redirected to improving the health of other people in need. Who are all these people missing out on treatment because of coma patients? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/255 "2012-02-10T18:33:47Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > There is a big difference between “enough” and none. I take this to mean that you’re OK with denying treatment to coma patients who have no friends or family. > [@](#): > > A fetus that is being aborted generally has no one that cares about it. There is a big difference between “generally” and none. > [@](#): > > Which is why the second part of my post comes into play - no one other than the woman who would have to carry the pregnancy and give birth should be involved in the decision. I entirely agree, of course this isn’t an argument based on a fetus’s level of consciousness or how many people care for it, it’s an argument that makes logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/256 "2012-02-10T18:44:49Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Let the father carry it to term then. Oh wait. If you argue that it’s OK to abort a fetus because “nobody wants it” you have to consider the alternative case where someone does actually want it, because sometimes people other than the mother honestly want the baby to be born, and would lovingly care for it if they had the chance. None of that matters, and it’s perfectly fine that only the mother’s opinion matters, just don’t argue differently. > [@](#): > > Who are all these people missing out on treatment because of coma patients? Coma patients take beds, and significant nurse/doctor/equipment resources to manage their care. That stuff isn’t free, and those resources can go to other people, or simply reduce the cost of care, so more people can afford care. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/257 "2012-02-10T19:35:04Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I take this to mean that you’re OK with denying treatment to coma patients who have no friends or family. Myself personally? Probably. But my personal opinions have no weight in what other people decide to do. In general, you are not going to be able to find a coma patient in a hospital who does not have any loved ones. > [@](#): > > There is a big difference between “generally” and none. In the case of aborted fetuses, there really isn’t. Fetuses are aborted because the woman didn’t want it, and it is the rare male who would want to raise a baby by himself. > [@](#): > > I entirely agree, of course this isn’t an argument based on a fetus’s level of consciousness or how many people care for it, it’s an argument that makes logical sense. It’s a logical argument to those who want to compare consciousness between a fetus and a coma patient. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/258 "2012-02-10T20:03:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What makes a recovered consciousness inherently more valuable, more worthy of protection, than a new consciousness? The fact that it exists. Your argument leads straight to “every sperm is sacred”; should I be considered a mass murderer when I masturbate? Look at all those poor dead “new consciousnesses!” ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/259 "2012-02-10T20:11:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But coma patients had a consciousness at one point and if they are capable of recovery they still have one; it’s simply shut down. As opposed to a fetus, which has nothing. A coma patent capable of recovery is far closer to a sleeping person than they are to a fetus; their consciousness is in abeyance, not nonexistent. You don’t manufacture a whole new personality and set of memories every morning. And here is a true story that gave us all pause when we heard it: My friend D’s niece, L, gave birth to a girl who had no brain and only a tiny piece of brain stem which kept her alive for about a year and a half. During that time, as D said, it was quite awkward just to be around the girl. You’d look into her eyes and no one was looking back or even reacting. You could have burned her with a hot poker and she never would have felt it. Was there anybody in there? Any consciousness? I am doubtful. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/260 "2012-02-10T20:23:25Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Myself personally? Probably. But my personal opinions have no weight in what other people decide to do. In general, you are not going to be able to find a coma patient in a hospital who does not have any loved ones. Let me rephrase it, do you contend that your right to live should be dependent on whether or not people love you? > [@](#): > > In the case of aborted fetuses, there really isn’t. Fetuses are aborted because the woman didn’t want it, and it is the rare male who would want to raise a baby by himself. This isn’t MY argument, it’s yours. You said that coma patients have loved ones and fetuses don’t, and that’s why we treat them differently. The reality is that coma patients may or may not have loved ones, and fetuses do sometimes have people who want them. The reality is also that neither of those factors actually mean squat. The friendless coma patient isn’t going to be summarily discharged by a hospital to starve on his doorstep. The fetus who has 2 sets of grandparents 10 aunts and uncles and a father desperate to care for it still gets aborted if the mother decides to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=14)