# Abortion & gay marriage should not even be controversial **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125 "2012-02-07T21:53:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/21 "2012-02-07T22:55:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None. It’s all about bigotry towards homosexuals and the hatred of women. They are about nothing but malice. So then the feminists concerned about how many abortions are performed in Asia, particularly in China and India, are done for the purposes of sex selection “hate women.” Furthermore, you’re the guy who said he’s so concerned about false accusations of rape that he believes that it might be advisable to videotape all your sexual encounters to protect yourself. Now many, perhaps even most, would consider that stronger evidence of animosity towards women than someon saying they’re oppposed to abortion. In fact, I’d venture most women I know would be far more likely to classify that suggestion as sexist than the notion that abortion in some circumstances(I.E. sex selection, 3rd Trimester) should be illegal. Nevertheless, that doesn’t mean you hate women. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/22 "2012-02-07T22:56:11Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So your response to people you think are bigoted and nasty is to be bigoted and nasty? It’s the only way to shout 'em down like they should be shouted down. **Never** let the religious right out-demonize you! Always top 'em! Follow them into the churches and shame them there! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/23 "2012-02-07T22:56:54Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So your response to people you think are bigoted and nasty is to be bigoted and nasty? “Disapprove of the Right” is not bigotry, however much the Right loves to pretend it is. Is it bigotry to oppose Nazism or Communism or racism? And nastiness like violence is perfectly justified when the other side starts it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/24 "2012-02-07T22:58:19Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then the feminists concerned about how many abortions are performed in Asia, particularly in China and India, are done for the purposes of sex selection “hate women.” :rolleyes: They are not part of the anti-abortion movement. As you well know I expect. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/25 "2012-02-07T23:02:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sorry if it sounds that way, I’m just sick of engaging with social conservatives like they deserve to be taken seriously as adults, which they don’t. More importantly, I resent the demands all this imposes on public time and attention. Every hour politicians spend wrestling with these brainfart nonissues is an hour they could spend on something really important and urgent. 1. I’d suggest that you don’t engage them. 2. Acting as if you don’t take them serious is a sign of contempt. That sort of tone comes across as hostile and causes you yourself to appear childish and not worthy of being taken serious. As an example, look at **Der Trihs’s** posts and ask yourself if that’s what you want to be associated with. 3. It’s entirely possible to show respect for someone’s position, while disagreeing with them, and require that they prove justification why laws should be enacted based on their pet project. 4. Like with evolution, the abortion and SSM debates have very easily winnable paths. If you can’t be arsed to learn them it’s not The Right’s fault. Starting off by saying their position is unreasonable and you refuse to take them seriously doesn’t end well. You make yourself look like an unreasonable bigot. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/26 "2012-02-07T23:05:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it goes a lot further than that. On social issues, RWs are not only always wrong, they are always **completely, fundamentally, indefensibly** wrong. Like, Nate-the-Neoconservative wrong. Could it be the best approach yet? Is it anything like ignoring the neighborhood bully, until he just gives up and goes away for lack of attention? Because the bully is not even worth getting worked up over, as he is so wrong, and beyond wrong? Because this approach IMO did not guarantee an end to bullying in our neighborhood, although it is what our elders told us to do. So there must be merit in that approach. But we usually preferred just to kick their asses. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/27 "2012-02-07T23:05:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Disapprove of the Right” is not bigotry, however much the Right loves to pretend it is. Is it bigotry to oppose Nazism or Communism or racism? Bigotry is bigotry. It doesn’t matter how bad you think your opponent is. That the Nazi committed genocide does not itself justify genocide of Nazis. Also, being opposed to something is very different from being a bigot. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And nastiness like violence is perfectly justified when the other side starts it. So then you admit to being nasty because you think it’s justified? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/28 "2012-02-07T23:06:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: They are not part of the anti-abortion movement. As you well know I expect. You’re saying that people opposed to abortion aren’t “part of the anti-abortion movement”? Please explain. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/29 "2012-02-07T23:07:22Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Could it be the best approach yet? Is it anything like ignoring the neighborhood bully, until he just gives up and goes away for lack of attention? Because the bully is not even worth getting worked up over, as he is so wrong, and beyond wrong? Because this approach IMO did not guarantee an end to bullying in our neighborhood, although it is what our elders told us to do. So there must be merit in that approach. But we usually preferred just to kick their asses. So like **Der Trihs** your solution to violence is violence? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/30 "2012-02-07T23:10:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Right however is composed of liars, fools, fanatics and predators who simply don’t care about facts or logic. They are the moral and intellectual cesspool of America. Why is this statement allowed? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/31 "2012-02-07T23:14:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > 1. I’d suggest that you don’t engage them. Not an option for anyone who doesn’t want to be run over by them. > [@emacknight](#): > > 1. Acting as if you don’t take them serious is a sign of contempt. That sort of tone comes across as hostile and causes you yourself to appear childish and not worthy of being taken serious. As if there is any chance at all that they’ll take anyone who doesn’t agree with them seriously, or with anything other than hatred. The non-Right (there really isn’t a Left anymore) has been trying your “suck up to the Right” strategy for ages; the only result is that the Left is gone and the nation drifts ever further to the right. And they are contemptible. And one reason they only get worse is that almost no one is willing to point it out to them. > [@emacknight](#): > > 1. It’s entirely possible to show respect for someone’s position, while disagreeing with them, and require that they prove justification why laws should be enacted based on their pet project. Why give their positions false respect? It just strengthens their position, makes them look more reasonable than they are while hobbling any arguments you make against them. > [@emacknight](#): > > 1. Like with evolution, the abortion and SSM debates have very easily winnable paths. And those would be? The Right is irrational, bigoted and dishonest; you can’t win over someone like that with reason. Among _reasonable_ people, the argument is long since over. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/32 "2012-02-07T23:16:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Bigotry is bigotry. It doesn’t matter how bad you think your opponent is. That the Nazi committed genocide does not itself justify genocide of Nazis. ? > [@emacknight](#): > > So like **Der Trihs** your solution to violence is violence? And now you are pretending that I’ve called for violence. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/33 "2012-02-07T23:31:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And nastiness like violence is perfectly justified when the other side starts it. That looks like advocating violence. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/34 "2012-02-07T23:32:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by emacknight > 4. Like with evolution, the abortion and SSM debates have very easily winnable paths. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And those would be? The Right is irrational, bigoted and dishonest; you can’t win over someone like that with reason. Among _reasonable_ people, the argument is long since over. So then people objecting to all the abortions of baby girls in China and India are irrational, bigoted, dishonest, and unreasonable? Please explain. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/35 "2012-02-07T23:34:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . It’s like arguing with flat-Earthers. . . . Speaking as a member of the Flat Earth Research Society…um… Actually, you’re right. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . Like, Nate-the-Neoconservative wrong. Tom the Dancing Bug? I’m a big fan of Bolling also! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/36 "2012-02-07T23:38:02Z")
Taking humans in a certain stage of development from their very mothers, intentionally killing them, disposing of them as nameless non-humans will always be controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/37 "2012-02-07T23:39:50Z")
I want to thank the OP for the thread. There’s nothing like declaring your enemies defeated and/or always wrong. It shows whom you should bother debating and whom not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/38 "2012-02-07T23:42:53Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > And nastiness like violence is perfectly justified when the other side starts it. That looks like advocating violence. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: You’ve never heard of the right of self defense? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then people objecting to all the abortions of baby girls in China and India are irrational, bigoted, dishonest, and unreasonable? > Please explain. > Thanks Again, that’s an entirely different group of people with an entirely different agenda. You might as well call someone who opposes bashing people on the head and stealing their organs “anti-surgery”. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/39 "2012-02-07T23:51:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: You’ve never heard of the right of self defense? Please, you said violence is ok if a person feels justified. Which pretty much accounts for anyone that has ever used it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125/40 "2012-02-07T23:52:50Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please, you said violence is ok if a person feels justified. :rolleyes: No, I said it’s OK if the other side is violent _first_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-gay-marriage-should-not-even-be-controversial/612125.md?page=3)