# Abortion & Immigration: A moderate reponse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761 "2010-01-20T23:34:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/41 "2010-01-22T23:34:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Are you kidding?! People sneak in all the time with their kids in the hopes that their kids can grow up in the U.S. instead of their home country. On our dime, of course, degrading our school system and putting undue pressure on our health care system. And I’m telling you that’s merely the misconception held by most Anglos in this country. Also, _cite?_ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/42 "2010-01-22T23:40:11Z")
Actually, I need a cite myself. That said, I agree with this bit of noise: > [@](#): > > There are LOTS of countries that do a better job than we do. Let me give you an example: > > Person immigrates to a new country. > > USA: Damn foreigner, why don’t you speak English already? Learn English! > Canada - Quebec: Bienvenue a Canada. Here’s where you take you free French lessons. You will be tested. Bonne chance! > > I’m proud of our record in taking in refugees, but I am ashamed at our record of embracing immigrants. We wouldn’t have gang problems if we didn’t ghettoise minorities into segregated neighbourhoods of crime and filth. We get angry at immigrants for not succeeding, yet we do everything in our power to exclude them and put unrealistic demands on them. The cost to society would be a lot less if we actually spent some money to help them from the get go. [http://digg.com/world\_news/Who\_is\_Coming\_to\_America\_INFOGRAPHIC](http://digg.com/world_news/Who_is_Coming_to_America_INFOGRAPHIC) ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/43 "2010-01-23T05:02:37Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > And I’m telling you that’s merely the misconception held by most Anglos in this country. > > Also, _cite?_ Well I had this as a cite… > [@Rodgers01](#): > > Well “:rolleyes:” yourself: of course [it](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/07/eveningnews/main4000401.shtml) [happens](http://www.fileus.org/dept/citizenship/02-05-26-latimes-birth_tourism_asia.html). It happens in most rich countries which grant birthright citizenship (of which the US is one of the few remaining). The Irish [outlawed it](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/world/voters-reject-automatic-citizenship-for-babies-born-in-ireland.html?pagewanted=1) a couple of years ago because they thought it was being abused, and they were the last country in the EU (at the time) to have it. Frankly, it just makes sense that a lot of illegal immigrants would want their kids to be born in the US (or whatever country they’re in that has birthright citizenship) - the kid gets automatic dual citizenship and the parents get a better chance to stay in the country should they want to. There’s no downside - it’s almost insulting to their intelligence to insist that no one does this. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/44 "2010-01-23T05:36:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Actually, I need a cite myself. > > That said, I agree with this bit of noise: > > > [@](#): > > > > There are LOTS of countries that do a better job than we do. Let me give you an example: > > > > Person immigrates to a new country. > > > > USA: Damn foreigner, why don’t you speak English already? Learn English! > > Canada - Quebec: Bienvenue a Canada. Here’s where you take you free French lessons. You will be tested. Bonne chance! > > > > I’m proud of our record in taking in refugees, but I am ashamed at our record of embracing immigrants. We wouldn’t have gang problems if we didn’t ghettoise minorities into segregated neighbourhoods of crime and filth. We get angry at immigrants for not succeeding, yet we do everything in our power to exclude them and put unrealistic demands on them. The cost to society would be a lot less if we actually spent some money to help them from the get go. > > [http://digg.com/world\_news/Who\_is\_Coming\_to\_America\_INFOGRAPHIC](http://digg.com/world_news/Who_is_Coming_to_America_INFOGRAPHIC) This is mostly nonsense. Whether or not you think the US “embraces” immigrants, a hell of a lot of immigrants are succeeding very well here, and a lot of others want to come to have a shot at it. Asian-Americans - a huge percentage of whom are first or second generation Americans - have, according to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian-Americans), “the highest educational attainment levels, median household income, and median personal income of any racial demographic in the nation”. Not much to be ashamed of there. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/45 "2010-01-23T23:08:25Z")
So do they come because they are budding American patriots? Do they just really like our flag? Are they wanting to watch American football & eat hot dogs? No, not necessarily. They want a better life. Make more money, get your kid out of mandatory military service. If their countries were better off relative to the USA, some great number would probably stay home. This is due to the fact that First World countries have, over generations, built a system wherein our money is worth so much more than most nations’ & their labor exists to provide us with cheap goods. This system was built with conquest & military power, btw. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/46 "2010-01-23T23:16:04Z")
But anyway, I’m not proving anything without numbers. What proportion of immigrants are trying to make their kids US citizens, & what proportion of that is for selfish reasons versus a genuine affection for US culture? I don’t know, & you don’t seem to know either. I do know at least some Mesoamerican migrants are not in it for the long haul. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/47 "2010-01-24T04:21:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I knew the numbers were available - I was just curious if the OP assumed the numbers were much higher. I don’t see why the OP would need to think it was much higher. Per DianaG’s cite we’re tallking a little over 1% of 1.3 million a year being preformed within 3 weeks of the earliest possible viability. We’ve made a big deal about smaller numbers: 13,000/year is two and half times as high as the number of soldiers we’ve lost in [Iraq](http://icasualties.org/), and more than four times as many as we lost on 9/11. Emotional issues don’t care about numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/48 "2010-01-24T04:37:12Z")
Virtually none of those are performed in the 3rd trimester, though. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/49 "2010-01-24T05:57:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Virtually none of those are performed in the 3rd trimester, though. How do we know, though? I’ve yet to find a single cite that says anything more concrete than “post-20 weeks.” The hard numbers on how many of that 1.1% happen late second trimester vs any time third just don’t seem to be out there. The lack of numbers has always struck me as a little strange: you’d think with pro-choice people wanting to say “look how **few** are done third trimester” and pro-life people wanting to say “look how **many** are done third trimester” _someone_ would be motivated to keep better stats. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/50 "2010-01-24T08:23:28Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But anyway, I’m not proving anything without numbers. What proportion of immigrants are trying to make their kids US citizens, & what proportion of that is for selfish reasons versus a genuine affection for US culture? > > I don’t know, & you don’t seem to know either. > > I do know at least some Mesoamerican migrants are not in it for the long haul. I live in a city and area that’s heavily Hispanic. Some Hispanic immigrants want to become Americans, and want their kids to become Americans. They learn American culture and customs and English. Sometimes they abandon all of their old country ways, but more usually they keep at least some traditions and customs. They may or may not speak Spanish in their homes, or speak Spanish sometimes and English other times. Others cling tightly to their culture and regard themselves as Mexicans (or whatever) who are just here to make money, send some of it back, and probably return to the Home Country. They resist speaking English, and usually make little or no effort to learn more than is necessary to get along. They don’t participate in US customs if they don’t have to. My father’s parents immigrated from Sicily. They kept many of their customs, and learned new ones. They learned English, and became naturalized citizens as soon as they could. They spoke a lot of Italian in the home, but also some English, especially with the kids. They gave their kids Italian names, but used Anglicized in public…for instance, my father’s name on his birth certificate is Giovanni, but he’s always been called Johnny or John. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761/51 "2010-01-24T11:44:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So do they come because they are budding American patriots? Do they just really like our flag? Are they wanting to watch American football & eat hot dogs? > > No, not necessarily. > > They want a better life. Make more money, get your kid out of mandatory military service. If their countries were better off relative to the USA, some great number would probably stay home. > > This is due to the fact that First World countries have, over generations, built a system wherein our money is worth so much more than most nations’ & their labor exists to provide us with cheap goods. This system was built with conquest & military power, btw. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > But anyway, I’m not proving anything without numbers. What proportion of immigrants are trying to make their kids US citizens, & what proportion of that is for selfish reasons versus a genuine affection for US culture? > > I don’t know, & you don’t seem to know either. > > I do know at least some Mesoamerican migrants are not in it for the long haul. …huh? The question that started this sub-debate was whether or not illegal immigrants sometimes want their kids to be born in the US so that they’d have American citizenship. You insisted this does not happen. I provided some evidence it did. You still deny it. The question of immigrants’ motives for coming to the US in the first place is a separate matter. Of _course_ most of them want to make money and improve their lives, and fewer would come if they had better opportunities back home. So? That’s not even in debate. You have a chip on your shoulder, however, over the idea that some of them may also like American culture. Why? A lot of people come here from unstable, highly corrupt, violent countries. What’s so unfathomable about the idea that some of them like the idea of life in a stable, (relatively) uncorrupt country with some great ideals (even if it doesn’t always uphold them) and a relatively open society? Beyond that, some of them probably just like American culture, in the looser sense of the word - don’t forget we have thousands of immigrants each year from other rich countries who have no particular economic incentive to come. (And in just the same way, some Americans decamp every year for other countries they happen to be attracted to, or because they have a better job opportunity. Again: so??) I live with an immigrant in a very heavily immigrant neighborhood - I can’t imagine more than 10% of the people around here could be native born. Virtually everyone who comes into my apartment is from someplace else: the Caribbean, Central America, Russia, the Balkans, the Middle East, and so on. Most of the ones I’ve gotten to know seem pretty happy. Some, I imagine, are not. Most of them plan to stay here indefinitely; some don’t. There’s a big mix of people with a big mix of motivations who come to this country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-immigration-a-moderate-reponse/525761.md?page=2)