Abortion is wrong

Great Debates
181

IWLN, I can understand pro-choice positions. I really can. But I do think that in most instances, both sides hold different things to be axiomatic. I concede that my beliefs, in the end, are axiomatic (grossly simplified: that all human beings have the right to live). Others don’t hold that, and when things are reduced to axioms, there’s nothing left to debate, by definition.

But I think it can be useful to test your own logic in these threads, and to point out to others what is not logical in their own philosophies (as others have in mine). This really is the process of reducing something to the axiomatic. If we strip away the non sequiturs, that doesn’t mean that either side “loses.” But it can mean that we lay bare exactly what drives our beliefs. We can see them for what they are.

So I think it is useful to point out what is fallacious with statements like, “The law should not regulate morality.” Or, “All real pro-lifers would be storming abortion clinics to do violence; anyone who does not, can’t believe what they say they do.” “All things with human DNA have the right to live” is another non sequitur that sharp pro-choicers are quick to shred, and rightly so.

To demonstrate how these rest on faulty syllogisms helps to show what truly drives the belief–mine or anyone’s. Honest people can have moments where the exchange helps to clarify their own thoughts–“You’re right. I guess this is what I really mean” moments. This doesn’t mean the basic belief is suddenly rendered false.

And, of course, it doesn’t necessarily change anyone’s mind. Then again, maybe it does. But I do think these debates can be constructive regardless. Most often, they aren’t, and the smallest concession is not given or expected. I’m getting better at walking away from the real pissing contests, though not always. Oh, well.

182

Well, you are right, it does sometimes help clarify thoughts. It did for me anyway. While I don’t feel like I have the right to take a woman’s choice away, I wish that would happen anyway. Just checking. Yep, I’m still a hypocrite. :wink: I’ve never voted for a pro-choice politician and I’m sure I never will. If abortion ever came down to a public vote, I couldn’t do anything but vote to make it illegal. I did discover that I have no right to debate this issue and won’t be unwise enough to do it again. Remind me I said that if you see me. :frowning:

183

Don’t be silly. Civil discourse and open minds are always welcome. You’ll never get this reminder from me. :slight_smile:

184

Abortion is right when a woman makes the decision on her own with her full will, and wrong if forced or if the woman decides it is the wrong decision for her.

185

Ummmm…Okay??

186

I think he said babies don’t count? Not being old enough to talk yet, sure does suck for the baby.:frowning:

187

If it is the woman’s, and only the woman’s, decision, why does Dad have to pay up when the guy’s born? If there is no connection between the sex 9 months ago and the baby being born, why is the baby dad’s responsibility?

If woman can claim sole “ownership” of the baby’s future (during pregnancy) why share after it comes out?

188

From reading all these various responses I can conlude that this topic will never be resolved. Which makes sense, it all depends on your personal belief system. As a fully fledged atheist I do not believe that there is any such thing as right and wrong and what human kind has deemed to be ‘bad’ is merely a matter of convention. From this point of view of course it is up to the individual to decide upon the best course of action for their situation. If you have strong religious or ‘moral’ beliefs you will think the opposite.

The real point is, we don’t know and it is highly likely that we will never know.

Maybe when a pro-lifer dies and has conclusive proof of the existence of God (and a God that disapproves of abortion), and can come back and tell me about it I’ll change my stance.

189

So, do you hold this for all moral decisions? Do you understand that there is not a law on the books that does not force a moral choice? Would you have them all repealed?

190

So atheists don’t have a moral code…huh you learn something new everyday. :dubious:

Wow…this could almost make sense…except for the tiny detail that Stratocaster and I have not made an appeal to religion (or belief in God) to buttress our point…

But you know…don’t let that detail stop you from making whatever point it is you’re trying to make…

191

Nope. And it is because not many murders of human beings are going on, and certainly none that I know of that involve complicity of a society for which I am democratically and civically responsible.

All I did was point out that for your claims here to be relevant, they would require a radical rethinking of morality. My assertion does NOT require any such radical re-think. You seem to think that your hypothetical is EXACTLY like mine just because you say it is, just because you reject a key difference without further argument. But the fact is, the principle that John Q Public is failing in a moral duty to aid Mr. Starving Child halfway around the world is a principle that, rightly or wrongly, almost no one, including the vast majority of pro-life people, takes seriously.

However, people DO take seriously the idea that one has a duty to do something about great harms happening in our own society, right in front of them.

John is a man living in Dayton, Ohio while people are being slaughtered in East Timor. Would people castigate him for not doing something? For rushing overseas to a place he’s never been and has no ties to? You’d find very few people who’d do so. And yet, if John sat on his tush while the government dragged away all of his Polish friends and neighbors to be killed, many would condemn him. Indeed, we hear endlessly about the sickness of societies like Germany or Rwanda in which ordinary citizens tolerated or even aided mass killings. There seems to be a real sense that we CAN hold these citizens to account for what their society does.

You may think that this difference is invalid. You seem to think it is. And maybe you are right. But the fact is, before you try to pass off an argument based on the assumption that there is no difference, you are going to have to mount a substantial argument as to why: and at least act like you’re aware of the fact that you are challenging, in a pretty radical way, most people’s senses of what morality involves.

I’ve answered your arguments quite directly. You have not even addressed these responses except to dismiss them out of hand. I have even pointed to counter arguments to my original argument that defeat it, and explained exactly what is at stake in such contentions. All quickly ignored with overblown hand waving.

Instead, apparently it’s time to end discussion of substantive issues and start grunting about the futility of discussion, hem hem.

I meant that the action need not necessarily be violent (to be effective), and need not even necessarily involve refraining from posting on messageboards. I certianly was too strong in my statements initially if they imply that, faced with an easy path to outlawing abortion or murdering doctors, the “true believer” must necessarily take the murders. Effectiveness is paramount to a particular means.

But then, how can violence be ruled out if lives are at stake? Why is justifiable homicide acceptable to save the life of a child from a murderer, but not to save a fetus from an abortionist?

You complain about overblown rhetoric and an unwillingness to moderate positions, but the rhetoric of full blown murder, and holocaust, and so on is exactly what the pro-life movement has embraced. It may well be that cowardice is a good reason why some do not do more, and laziness another, for any positive duty to stop harms. But that doesn’t change the fact that rhetoric like mass murder and carries with it certain implications that seem completely out of sync with what sorts of reactions people are willing to defend and countenance to these claimed murders.

The adoption argument is, indeed, logical nonsense (should those against capital punishment be forced to house the inmates for the duration of their life sentances?) The law of course legislates morality, unavoidably and knowingly, even if not always clearly. But you have not convinced me at all that the reaction of people taking the hard line pro-life position to current abortions is in line with what should be a relevant situation. It may not be a relevant situation (which is what Polycarp argued).

But here I am, a person who, despite not doing all he could for the plight of foriegners (though trying to work in that industry, incidentally), most certainly would strongly oppose a genocide going on in my city if I thought one was going on, and would resist government authorities that aided and abeted it. Perhaps that does involve an inconsistency with any extreme vision of a justifiable moral system. But it is perfectly in line with most people’s experiences.

So, here I am, the sort of person described above, and I am told that, in fact, just such a mass murder as I envisioned IS in fact going on. And yet I would be wrong, for some reason, to behave in the way that I definately think would be justifiable were mass murder going on.

So tell me, convince me: what is that reason? Should I revise my original feelings such that I would NOT resolve to strongly resist a genocide here in New York? Is that what you think I should do? What’s the resolution here?

192

I honestly just saw this. My holiday schedule led me to think the thread had died without a response, when it only went to page two without my having seen it. I hope I don’t regret ignoring my initial reaction, which was to let this thread rest in peace.

First, let me say this. Whether or not most people feel the way you do is not proven, but even conceding that point, this is a logical fallacy, an argumentum ad numerum. Whether or not our arguments are consistent with “most people’s senses of…morality” is not relevant, IMO.

But I would point out that there are people in the world who would perceive your behavior as cowardly and lazy and inconsistent with a belief that the people in foreign lands deserve basic human rights. Otherwise, you would be off your ass. Again, from a certain perspective, one might assert that whatever occupies your attention, it is trivial compared to the abuses occuring elsewhere in the world. However more strongly you can influence local issues, the egregious abuses elsewhere deserve your attention. And if you don’t focus there, then you don’t believe what you say you do.

What gives such a person the authority to make such a judgment?

I’m not saying you are immoral for your inaction. I am pointing out that this is the same (in essence, if not degree) as your argument against pro-lifers. If you say that you think pro-lifers are not doing enough, we can debate that. If you say that pro-lifers’ lack of violent opposition, by itself, is a de facto admission that they don’t believe what they say they do, you are wrong. As wrong as the person who might point out to you that you don’t really believe that North Koreans deserve basic human rights because you’re not over there fighting for the cause.

You can counter yet again with, “But if those abuses were occurring here, I would react differently.” That’s easy to say. But you don’t know what you would do, not in the face of an enormously powerful political infrastructure that opposed your actions, opposed them to the point of imprisonment.

You don’t know what you would do if you believed that different political strategies would ultimately produce the greatest good. I honestly don’t mean this to sound flippant, but the only thing we know for sure regarding how you would react to horrible human rights abuses (those you believe are occurring) is that you won’t so much as take a plane ride to help. Everything else is speculation and not the basis for an argument, not by itself.

Let me explain it this way. You would react in a certain manner to observing mass murders in your neighborhood. You can ignore similar behavior elsewhere in the world. I don’t see anything unusual in this reaction and consequently see no reason to prove to you that you wouldn’t react as you say that you would.

BUT…here’s your non sequitur. If a pro-lifer does not react exactly as you would, it does not logically follow that said pro-lifers holds the unborn’s lives in lower regard than they say they do.

It could be that a pro-lifer would not respond in the manner that you would in ANY circumstance. I have already told you I don’t know that I would. It could be that there are other practical issues influencing the decision–e.g., a belief that violence will not materially affect the number of abortions, and would serve only to get the pro-lifer imprisoned. It could be that the pro-lifer believes that other strategies would ultimately be more effective in the long term. It could be many things, none of which are inconsistent, none of them requiring a “radical rethinking of morality.”

Bottom line, you are begging the question in asserting that a lack of violent action is the very proof that a belief is invalid. This is the point I am arguing against.

You have not proven that your reaction is the only possible valid one to an observation of this type of activity combined with a belief that human beings are being hurt. It is not even your reaction to murders/human rights abuses elsewhere in the world. Why is it IMPOSSIBLE that pro-lifers could be as inactive as you are (insofar as violence opposition goes), for any number of reasons, while still believing that the unborn have the right to live?

Does this explain my reaction better? If you respond with some variation of, “But that’s not what I would do,” so what? You have not proven that the behavior of pro-lifers can only be consistent with a core belief that the unborn are lesser beings. You can suspect it. You can state that you would react differently. But you would still be begging the question if you continue to assert what you do.

193

Hmm. Touchy subject. I’m not going to try to persuade anyone to my side, since I already know that it can’t be done. All I have are my opinions and what my close friends have gone through.

First, for me. If I found out right this second that I was pregnent, I would get an abortion. There’s no one that could convince me not to.
For two reasons:
1, I’m nowhere near responsible enough to have a child. Not really a good excuse, but it’s not my main one.
2, The idea of being pregnent terrifies me. I’ve literally had nightmares about being pregnant. Nightmares where I wake up terrified until I realize that I am, indeed, not pregnant. I don’t know WHY this is, I just have a terrified, hystical response to the idea of myself getting pregnant. It’s not the after-effects of pregnancy (raising a child), because I could easily adopt it out. It’s just the act of being pregnant. Just thinking about it right now is causing a lot of anxiety.

Every time I’ve ever had sex, I’ve been careful to the point of paranoia. The women in my family are a fertile bunch, so I’m going to take every precaution I can to not get pregnant. If there was a guaranteed method of not getting preggers (but still be able to have sex), I’d do it in a heartbeat, if I could afford it.

I’ve recently reached a higher level of anxiety about pregnancy, which has resulted in considerably less sex (about once every 2 to 3 months with my fiance). Even when we do have sex, it’s harder for me to enjoy it, since I have a nagging in the back of my mind “What if I accidentally get pregnent this time?” Even tho I know I could get an abortion (which I am incredibly grateful to have that option). This lack of sex has put a bit of tension in our relationship. Luckily, the fiance is a very understanding man.

I occasionally wish that I’d turned out to be a lesbian, instead of just bi, so that I’d never have to worry about getting pregnant, and still be able to enjoy sex.

If I had a choice between getting an abortion and having the fetus removed and being placed into another woman’s womb, I’d choose #2 in a second. Unfortunatly, that doesn’t seem to be an option. But I’m not going to carry a child to birth.

Now, on to other people

Two of my friends have had abortions. #1 was told by several doctors that she’d never, ever be able to have children, due to a disease that I can’t remember the name of. She lives at home at the age of 23 because she can’t find a steady, well-paying job. #2 got pregnant shortly before her boyfriend got arrested (for a BS charge, but that’s a completely different story). She had been living with him (playing housewife), and couldn’t find a job at all. She had to move back in with her mother.

For both women, it was a very difficult decision to make, after after weighing all the options they had, decided that abortion was the lesser of two evils. If anyone ever called either of my friends a baby killer to her face, I’d punch them as hard as I could. It’s was a painful and personal decision for them that was hard enough to make on their own without people judging.

On the other hand, I have 3 friendswho’ve accidentally gotten pregnant and decided to keep it. #1 was a terrible alcoholic (so she says, because I wasn’t around during that time). #2 was already living in subsidized apts (I think that’s the right word) and on food stamps. #3 is still pregnant, due in, er . . . May, I think. Unmarried, but luckily dating a very responsible guy who has a good job. But she is really, really strange. Really.

#1’s life has improved. Cleaned up her life, going to college, all that fun stuff.
#2 Has since gotten divorced, contnued to smoke, but finally has a job. Unfortunatly, it’s a manager job at, like, Pappa John’s or somesuch, and she rarely gets to see her daughter. But her daughter is loved, and has a wonderful GodMother. Still on foodstamps, tho. No child support.
#3 Has lost all initiative to go to college, get a job, or even get her driver’s license. Doesn’t even talk to her friends anymore. Thinks that all she’ll ever need to be in life is a mother. Kay. Don’t know what kind of mother she’ll be, since her child hasn’t been born yet.

What’s the point of typing this all out? To, I dunno, show that different women make different choices. But I think that women need to be able to make these choices. I can only imagine the lengths I’d go to to abort a child if abortion was illegal. On occasion, I’ve thought about it, and none of them are pretty, and some of them could cause me serious injury.

However, I don’t agree with 3rd trimester abortions. 6 months is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep it or not.

Blah blah. I had something else to say, but I seem to just be rambling on and on.

194

Hmm. Touchy subject. I’m not going to try to persuade anyone to my side, since I already know that it can’t be done. All I have are my opinions and what my close friends have gone through.

First, for me. If I found out right this second that I was pregnent, I would get an abortion. There’s no one that could convince me not to.
For two reasons:
1, I’m nowhere near responsible enough to have a child. Not really a good excuse, but it’s not my main one.
2, The idea of being pregnent terrifies me. I’ve literally had nightmares about being pregnant. Nightmares where I wake up terrified until I realize that I am, indeed, not pregnant. I don’t know WHY this is, I just have a terrified, hystical response to the idea of myself getting pregnant. It’s not the after-effects of pregnancy (raising a child), because I could easily adopt it out. It’s just the act of being pregnant. Just thinking about it right now is causing a lot of anxiety.

Every time I’ve ever had sex, I’ve been careful to the point of paranoia. The women in my family are a fertile bunch, so I’m going to take every precaution I can to not get pregnant. If there was a guaranteed method of not getting preggers (but still be able to have sex), I’d do it in a heartbeat, if I could afford it.

I’ve recently reached a higher level of anxiety about pregnancy, which has resulted in considerably less sex (about once every 2 to 3 months with my fiance). Even when we do have sex, it’s harder for me to enjoy it, since I have a nagging in the back of my mind “What if I accidentally get pregnent this time?” Even tho I know I could get an abortion (which I am incredibly grateful to have that option). This lack of sex has put a bit of tension in our relationship. Luckily, the fiance is a very understanding man.

I occasionally wish that I’d turned out to be a lesbian, instead of just bi, so that I’d never have to worry about getting pregnant, and still be able to enjoy sex.

If I had a choice between getting an abortion and having the fetus removed and being placed into another woman’s womb, I’d choose #2 in a second. Unfortunatly, that doesn’t seem to be an option. But I’m not going to carry a child to birth.

Now, on to other people

Two of my friends have had abortions. #1 was told by several doctors that she’d never, ever be able to have children, due to a disease that I can’t remember the name of. She lives at home at the age of 23 because she can’t find a steady, well-paying job. #2 got pregnant shortly before her boyfriend got arrested (for a BS charge, but that’s a completely different story). She had been living with him (playing housewife), and couldn’t find a job at all. She had to move back in with her mother.

For both women, it was a very difficult decision to make, after after weighing all the options they had, decided that abortion was the lesser of two evils. If anyone ever called either of my friends a baby killer to her face, I’d punch them as hard as I could. It’s was a painful and personal decision for them that was hard enough to make on their own without people judging.

On the other hand, I have 3 friendswho’ve accidentally gotten pregnant and decided to keep it. #1 was a terrible alcoholic (so she says, because I wasn’t around during that time). #2 was already living in subsidized apts (I think that’s the right word) and on food stamps. #3 is still pregnant, due in, er . . . May, I think. Unmarried, but luckily dating a very responsible guy who has a good job. But she is really, really strange. Really.

#1’s life has improved. Cleaned up her life, going to college, all that fun stuff.
#2 Has since gotten divorced, contnued to smoke, but finally has a job. Unfortunatly, it’s a manager job at, like, Pappa John’s or somesuch, and she rarely gets to see her daughter. But her daughter is loved, and has a wonderful GodMother. Still on foodstamps, tho. No child support.
#3 Has lost all initiative to go to college, get a job, or even get her driver’s license. Doesn’t even talk to her friends anymore. Thinks that all she’ll ever need to be in life is a mother. Kay. Don’t know what kind of mother she’ll be, since her child hasn’t been born yet.

What’s the point of typing this all out? To, I dunno, show that different women make different choices. But I think that women need to be able to make these choices. I can only imagine the lengths I’d go to to abort a child if abortion was illegal. On occasion, I’ve thought about it, and none of them are pretty, and some of them could cause me serious injury.

However, I don’t agree with 3rd trimester abortions. 6 months is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep it or not.

Blah blah. I had something else to say, but I seem to just be rambling on and on.

195

Hmm. Touchy subject. I’m not going to try to persuade anyone to my side, since I already know that it can’t be done. All I have are my opinions and what my close friends have gone through.

First, for me. If I found out right this second that I was pregnent, I would get an abortion. There’s no one that could convince me not to.
For two reasons:
1, I’m nowhere near responsible enough to have a child. Not really a good excuse, but it’s not my main one.
2, The idea of being pregnent terrifies me. I’ve literally had nightmares about being pregnant. Nightmares where I wake up terrified until I realize that I am, indeed, not pregnant. I don’t know WHY this is, I just have a terrified, hystical response to the idea of myself getting pregnant. It’s not the after-effects of pregnancy (raising a child), because I could easily adopt it out. It’s just the act of being pregnant. Just thinking about it right now is causing a lot of anxiety.

Every time I’ve ever had sex, I’ve been careful to the point of paranoia. The women in my family are a fertile bunch, so I’m going to take every precaution I can to not get pregnant. If there was a guaranteed method of not getting preggers (but still be able to have sex), I’d do it in a heartbeat, if I could afford it.

I’ve recently reached a higher level of anxiety about pregnancy, which has resulted in considerably less sex (about once every 2 to 3 months with my fiance). Even when we do have sex, it’s harder for me to enjoy it, since I have a nagging in the back of my mind “What if I accidentally get pregnent this time?” Even tho I know I could get an abortion (which I am incredibly grateful to have that option). This lack of sex has put a bit of tension in our relationship. Luckily, the fiance is a very understanding man.

I occasionally wish that I’d turned out to be a lesbian, instead of just bi, so that I’d never have to worry about getting pregnant, and still be able to enjoy sex.

If I had a choice between getting an abortion and having the fetus removed and being placed into another woman’s womb, I’d choose #2 in a second. Unfortunatly, that doesn’t seem to be an option. But I’m not going to carry a child to birth.

Now, on to other people

Two of my friends have had abortions. #1 was told by several doctors that she’d never, ever be able to have children, due to a disease that I can’t remember the name of. She lives at home at the age of 23 because she can’t find a steady, well-paying job. #2 got pregnant shortly before her boyfriend got arrested (for a BS charge, but that’s a completely different story). She had been living with him (playing housewife), and couldn’t find a job at all. She had to move back in with her mother.

For both women, it was a very difficult decision to make, after after weighing all the options they had, decided that abortion was the lesser of two evils. If anyone ever called either of my friends a baby killer to her face, I’d punch them as hard as I could. It’s was a painful and personal decision for them that was hard enough to make on their own without people judging.

On the other hand, I have 3 friendswho’ve accidentally gotten pregnant and decided to keep it. #1 was a terrible alcoholic (so she says, because I wasn’t around during that time). #2 was already living in subsidized apts (I think that’s the right word) and on food stamps. #3 is still pregnant, due in, er . . . May, I think. Unmarried, but luckily dating a very responsible guy who has a good job. But she is really, really strange. Really.

#1’s life has improved. Cleaned up her life, going to college, all that fun stuff.
#2 Has since gotten divorced, contnued to smoke, but finally has a job. Unfortunatly, it’s a manager job at, like, Pappa John’s or somesuch, and she rarely gets to see her daughter. But her daughter is loved, and has a wonderful GodMother. Still on foodstamps, tho. No child support.
#3 Has lost all initiative to go to college, get a job, or even get her driver’s license. Doesn’t even talk to her friends anymore. Thinks that all she’ll ever need to be in life is a mother. Kay. Don’t know what kind of mother she’ll be, since her child hasn’t been born yet.

What’s the point of typing this all out? To, I dunno, show that different women make different choices. But I think that women need to be able to make these choices. I can only imagine the lengths I’d go to to abort a child if abortion was illegal. On occasion, I’ve thought about it, and none of them are pretty, and some of them could cause me serious injury.

However, I don’t agree with 3rd trimester abortions. 6 months is plenty of time to decide if you want to keep it or not.

Blah blah. I had something else to say, but I seem to just be rambling on and on.

196

Holy crap! Stupid hamsters!