Whaaaaaaa?
I see two posters engaging in debate with IWLN, Stratocaster and me. I’m not exactly sure what is “graceless” about the questions and responses in this thread.
Two posters.
Two.
THAT is a “graceless dogpile”
Wow. Just wow.
Happy Holidays from this dogpiler. I trust that IWLN will survive this brutal inquisition.
:rolleyes:
It is serious. It is just as bad. It is murder. You are killing a human being. Murder is murder. Killing a baby is killing a baby. Doesnt matter the age when you murder a person, 90 years old, 1 month old, or 4 weeks after conception. No matter either where the baby is geographically, inside or outside of the womb.
I’m not dodging anything. I just don’t know exactly why you’re so fixated on comparing abortion to all the other laws. It is very different. Putting a law into place that is going to have little affect on the action, other than making it more akward, doesn’t seem productive. I guess there’s another side to it. They won’t just be wrong for terminating their pregnancy, they’ll also be violating the law. Why does that work for you?
But you want to legally determine what the women’s morals should be?
It’s not hard enough to find a good provider now, let’s see if we can make it worse. A mother emotionally unable to deal with child rearing may not be able to deal with giving their child away either.
Emotionally, I do count the unborn. The women don’t want them, but you want to make them have them anyway. The unborn are not here yet and you have yet to come up with a workable plan which considers what to do about that.
What about the one’s who aren’t desperate and deluded, that only don’t agree when life begins?
Well, you have me there. I never thought your comparisons had any validity in this issue. I am content with leaving the existing laws and their inforcement to someone more capable than I.
That’s obvious. It would then be illegal for him to follow his conscious.
I never said that permitting abortion is best for the majority. Abortion is never best IMHO. I stated that laws would be ineffective and biased.
Already answered.
I find abortion and punishment distasteful. What puzzles me is since you have equated abortion with burglars, murderers, rapists, etc., I don’t understand why you think the crime of abortion deserves less punishment. Why do you call it a ban instead of what it is and why are you willing to compromise on punishment, when you think they are guilty of taking a life?
Your response to “my fixation” is noted. :rolleyes:
That would be nice.
The three month cut off is in the best interest of the mother. Getting an abortion after you feel the life inside you is harder to recover from. Viability has to be an issue as long as abortion exists. Abortion can be traumatic enough, without complication.
My morality is between myself and my G-d. He makes it possible for me to be compassionate and non-judgmental. I’m not pro-choice, but I can understand why you think so. Everything is just not black and white. Until this thread came up, I had to some extent insulated myself from a problem I have no control over. The statistics for the last 30 years are heart-breaking. I’m not sure why you think this is a convenient stand for me. My children are grown, enthusiastically having many children of their own. They are all vehemently opposed to abortion. This issue probably will never personally affect me. So what do you think this convenient agenda is about for me? This is not a legal issue. This is a moral issue. Fifty years ago, people gave birth and raised children who were not taught to value every moral right and aspect of the sanctity of life. Forty million lives lost, due to that. So while every fiber of my being screams to stop this horrible thing, I can’t make other people feel the way I do. I can’t make their moral judgments for them. The only thing I can do is try not to make it worse for them than it already is. You think I somehow don’t value those babies and you’re wrong. I do have infinite faith in G-d and know that those children are safe. So if I think the mothers have equal right to my concern, that is my right. I have not failed in any way to examine and even agree in part with your feelings on this. Have you heard anything I’ve said?
Gasp!! Just barely. Have a nice Christmas.
Who LIKES abortion?? Who?? Who?? Name somebody.
“Regular mothers” sheesh. There are women all over the place who have had children years after having an abortion. I consider them “regular mothers”. I’m very sorry you don’t.
Furthermore, just because a woman chooses not to make a sacrifice you would does not give you the right to self-rightously damn them. It is not your life at risk, so not your choice to make. Think about it.
Shhh, it’s rude to point out the stupidity of someone else’s position.
People that dont “like” abortion, dont do it.
People that dont like robbing, stealing, murdering others, dont do it.
The 30 million who have done it, must “like” it, else they wouldnt have done it. If you want names, then look up the 30 million who have killed their babies and look up the doctors who have done it.
I think murdering any person or any baby is wrong and that is my unchangable opinion.
There are no gray areas, no excuses, no justification, no arguement, no buts, no negotiation. The baby is dead. The mother(and doctor ) killed it. The baby once had life, it had a future, and someone ended that life, and now the baby’s body is decaying and rotting.
I dont consider any mother who kills her child a “regular mother”. I dont care if you think mothers who murder their babies to be “regular” or not. You can, but I wont.
I am not “damming them”, I am just calling them for what they are : they are baby killers. They killed/murdered a human being. They murdered their own child.
I already said there are too many baby killers to be able to punish them, so I am not advocating that it be made illegal, but I dont have to like anybody who kills their own child.
You will never change my mind. I will never consider killing babies to be ok, so we will disagree.
Actually, I think a lot of fetusses are disposed of in incinerators.
In any case, you’re free to use the term “baby killers”. A number of us, though, don’t define “baby” and “killer” the same way you do. Fortunately, the laws don’t either.
Hey Bryan, You’re supposed to put water on the “flames”, not gasoline. :eek:
Murder and self-defence are different things, yet, I see your point. Abortion is still wrong even if the pregnancy endangers a mother’s life, what you do in that case is not to DIRECTLY cause the death of the foetus, but you take it out and try to save it (even if death is sure). That’s the difference between death as the means and death as the unintended (yet unavoidable) result.
Gosh, are you under the impression I could drive Susanann further from the pro-choice position? Heavens!
In any case, I respect freedom, including freedom to abort a fetus, or to call the fetus-aborter a pointlessly inflammatory term like “baby killer”, which I incidentally feel is inaccurate.
I just hope no-one rises to Susanann’s bait, or sinks to her level, or whatever metaphor is fitting, and turn this thread into a simple bout of name-calling. Judging from the thread’s title, I think that’s what the OP wanted all along.
I consider myself pro life. There is no way I can agree with or support these kind of statements. Furthermore, I think it does the pro life viewpoint no good to be pushing that particular line of thinking.
People do acts that “they don’t like” all the time. Often times, they are referred to as “necessary evils” or “the lesser of two evils” or some other term.
(I recognize that there is a spectrum of opinions from the women who have had abortions ranging from neutral or “not such a big deal” up to traumatizing events.)
If a family member becomes seriously mentally ill, for example, and I have to commit that person to hospitalized psychiatric care against his/her wishes…do you suppose that I would “like” doing that? Note that I am using this example only to rebut the notion that folks only do actions that they “like”, I am not comparing the action to havin an abortion.
I would beg to differ.
I don’t like stealing, but if my family were starving, and I had absolutely no way to buy food, then I would steal.
I don’t like murdering, but if someone attacked me or my family with the intent to kill, I would kill them if doing so were necessary to stop them.
In the Real World, you don’t always get a choice between what you like and what you don’t like. Often the choice is between what you don’t like, and what you like even less.
So extenuating circumstances are lost on you? For example, someone who kills in self defense is still a murderer, and should get life in prison (or the death penalty)?
You don’t know if the baby had a future or not. Maybe it would have been a Nobel Prize winning scientist. Maybe it would have been a serial killer. Maybe it would have been stillborn. We can play the “what might have been” game all day, but in the end I believe that the mother’s right to be pregnant (or not) as she chooses overrides the fetus’ right to live – up until the point that the fetus’ brain starts operating, and it becomes an actual person as opposed to a collection of tissues. But that’s my own opinion, and I don’t expect you to buy into it any more than I buy into your “ignoring extenuating circumstances” foolishness…
So, hypothetically speaking, a woman whose life is threatened by a pregnancy, and who will die if the fetus is not removed (and the fetus is too premature to possibly survive outside of the womb) has two choices: Not abort and die, or live and have you not like them. I know which one I would choose.
So, in the end, as always, it comes down to three questions.
When is a fetus a human being? (Before fertilization? Remember, parthenogensis in human beings is technically possible)
When does the right of the fetus to continue existing override the right of a mother to control her own destiny and body?
And, of course, if two people disagree about the answer to those two questions above… who is right? Should we make laws more or less restrictive?
I hate abortion. I think that it would be good if all pregnancies came to term, that all children would be raised in loving homes. But it’s not my place to tell someone they can’t have one. I feel that the option of the woman to have an abortion should exist… and if the woman truly feels that it’s wrong, then they can simply not have one.
I understand that Susanann thinks that all fetuses are living beings, and I understand that she thinks they have immortal souls. But the question of an immortal soul is something that can never be answered, until after death, so we must live with what we can look at in this world. Susanann, why must you inflict your religious views on others, to the point of advocating laws that force people to behave in one way or another?
So shooting someone in the head in self defense is wrong, but shooting them in the head and then giving them CPR (even though their brains no longer contained within their skull) is okay?
If death is certain, then attempting so save a life is morally the same as not attempting to save a life (especially if you put that life into the un-savable position in the first place).
If it’s unavoidable, and you know that it’s unavoidable, then it must be the intended result.
Well, I disagree that Susanann is inflicting anything on anybody. Anyone who feels they are being “inflicted” upon is far too fragile a person to use a computer and should be given a pacifier immediately.
I’m sorry. Why do you think it would be a good idea to enforce your religious ideas on others, Susanann, to the point of advocating laws that force people to behave in one way or another?
Better, Bryan?
Allll better.
I don’t think this logic even remotely makes sense.
But that’s not particularly interesting. What is interesting is that I don’t think YOU really and truly believe it either, as I noted. You say it. But I don’t think you really react like you would if adult people were being slaughtered all around you and the police did nothing: even prevented you from interfereing. If that was happening all around me, I certainly wouldn’t be calmly chit chatting about the rightness or wrongness of it on a messageboard.
I have to agree. Susanann said:
However, if women were regularly killing 6-month-old babies, it’s pretty much a given that Susanann would advocate that it be made illegal.
So yeah, it’s obvious from her reaction that Susanann doesn’t truly equate abortion with the murder of a baby. Maybe it comes close, but she clearly consideres it to be a seperate case that isn’t quite as bad as the murder of a non-fetus.