It makes a lot of people uneasy. My position puts me in the unique position of having both pro-lifers and pro-choicers disagree with me. To answer your question, yes. It applies equally to killing a two year old. If you take a look at the factors again, you will see that of the four benefits for allowing abortions, only one (emotional and financial benefit of not being forced to support and be parents to an unwanted child) survives after birth. However, the four factors which weigh against abortions are all equally pertinant before and after birth. I don’t think anyone would say that the one factor which favors killing a two year old (in those cases where it is applicable) outwieghs the four factors which favor not killing him.
Well, my great-grandma was rumored to have said to some of her offspring on occasion “I brung you into this world and if you don’t mind I’ll send you back out of it”.
Tripoverbiff 07-04-2000 10:54 PM:
“Tripoverbiff: I have little knowledge about this, and this is where being male betrays me, but I do know that an entire phenomenon of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder has now been classified: Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome. Symptoms include sleeplessness, nightmares, nervous agitation, difficulty in trusting others, etc. It has been described as being similar to the shell shock veterans experience; some victims have compared it to the trauma of rape. According to an article at http://www.boundless.org/2000/features/a0000230.html”
Apparently, the women in this study were not only opposed to abortion to start with, but not rape victims. Having BEEN raped and undergone the procedure myself – WITHOUT ANESTHESIA – (it hurts like hell, but that was MY penitence – and I can’t IMAGINE the kinds of wussies that found it extraordinarily painful WITH anesthesia…) – I can tell you that it was in NO way like being raped. It was a medical procedure. Nothing more, nothing less. Being raped (and I’ll leave it at that), however, was much more horrific. Anyone who says a woman ought to endure a nine-month + reminder of such an experience rather than end it and get therapy, certainly hasn’t dealt with it.
What irritates me more than anything else about this type of discussion is that the very people who insist that abortions are amoral are in fact not the people who have to face the eventual consequences of having to care for that unwanted life.
I say this… You think that every conception should be brought to term? Well then you step right in, roll up those sleeves and open that wallet. You want to have a say in what a woman can or cannot do with her body? Good, you deal with the consequences. You adopt that kid. You feed and cloth him. You educate and raise her. You be the parent. You’ve got absolute knowledge about what’s right and wrong because god speaks to you personally? Good for you - go on and put your time and money where your mouth is. And I don’t want to hear a single one of you whine about how it’s not your fault the woman got pregnant in the first place… unless you are going to legislate some laws that force every woman to keep her baby. While you are at it, why don’t you legislate some laws that prohibit people from having sex unless it meets with your approval.
The question is not when it is the fetus a human life. The question is, which lives are we willing to end for the benefit of society. We do not have a problem killing criminals, nor do we have much of a problem killing innocents such as we do in our numerous bombing raids of other countries.
As long as the government is not mandating the killing, and such killing is for the good of society and is pallatable by society in general, then it should be legal.
In general, we do not see the killing of a newborn in the same light as killing a father of five. Nor are we bothered as much by the removal of a “fetus.”
But most fetuses look like itty bitty humans when they are aborted. It is not like pulling a tooth. But we don’t see it so it doesn’t draw the revulsion of an infanticide…
Be brave. Either pay for all of the unwanted children of addicts and teens, or those with birth defects from peri-menapausal women, or get used to the discomfort of abortion.
The answer is easy: Whatever supports my own personal moral and ethical outlook.
I am of the firm belief that the position on abortion is decided first (by one’s self, or one’s church, or one’s political alignment, or whatever), and the Real Truth™ is constructed to support this position. There are some exceptions, of course (such as the smart people on this board), but by and large, the science is interpreted (or manufactured) to fit the agenda.
You will never get a real right wing bible-thumping fundie to believe that a 2 day old fetus is nothing but tissue, nor will you get a true pro-abortionist to believe that it’s a human life.
So to answer you’re implied followup question, When will we get everyone to agree on when human life starts? Never.
This is a really good question, not because it sheds light on abortion, rather that it sheds light on human psychology.
I find it almost sad to try and convince others that a woman’s right to choose is paramount. In a way, it’s like the myth of Sisyphus. The gods had condemned Sisyphus to ceaselessly rolling a rock to the top of a mountain, whence the stone would fall back of its own weight. They had thought with some reason that there is no more dreadful punishment than futile and hopeless labor. No matter how much we may try, there is little hope of convincing those with an opposing POV that our side is correct.
I just feel a little better in an open forum such as this – knowing that we all come in to debate our opinions in an intelligent manner.
