# abortion rights, womens rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358 "2008-11-24T23:52:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TimJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@TimJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimJ)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/1 "2008-11-24T23:52:56Z")
For decades now, I’ve read The Straight Dope. I’ve picked up many fun facts along the way from the researchers who have posed as Cecil Adams. Today, though, I got a shock upon reading the column–a trusted source revealed itself as something else, only two sentences from the top of the response, no less. The answer to arcane\_eye was by turns insulting, patronizing, ignorant, and obtuse. I read it three times, looking for some clue that might have revealed it as sarcasm, but no luck, which is too bad, but I don’t get surprised all that much anymore. It was only a year or two ago that I gave up thinking that “John Kass” was a clever joke by the Tribune to imply just how good Mike Royko really was. Well, all’s bad that ends bad, and in these final decades here in this “great land called America” (one of G.W. Bush’s favorite lines when he’s feeling especially patriotic), I’m sure we can expect more responses, admonishments, and recommendations like the ones given to arcane\_eye on November 21, 2008 in the coming months and years. So what’s so bad here, anyway? Well, from the top: 1.) “Nothing personal, arcane\_eye, but you’re one of the reasons we got stuck with eight years of George Bush.” Wow! This is the line that gave me hope–hope that I was about to enjoy, maybe, a bit of sarcasm, perhaps even satire. But, no. Apparently, a liberal-minded person who actually thinks women have rights and thinks abortion should be available somehow got confused and worked to elect W two times in a row, then worked for McCain/Palin (presumably). Of course this is personal; it’s an insult. What’s the reasoning? How could arcane\_eye have helped elect W two times in a row, then worked for McCain/Palin (presumably)? Of course this is personal; its an insult. What’s the reasoning? How could arcane\_eye have helped elect W? Like many informed people, I actually think (and I’ll bet arcane\_eye too) that right-wing and conservative types “elected” W. 2.) “While I’m sure you’re a splendid human being in person, in you’re letter you come across as a self-centered ninny, and you make the kinds of arguments that drive the religious right to new heights of zeal.” Another insult, and patronizing to boot. This is where the Straight Dope’s response starts to become revolting. How did arcane \_eye (and by extension, millions of others) give us W? Why, she pissed off the right wing Christians, that’s how! She demanded her “rights” (demanded!) and this insistence on rights drove the right-wingers into a frenzy. They were going to stay at home, and not support W, but by God, if you give the libs an inch, they’ll take a mile. So don’t upset the Right with talk about “rights” and “science” and “rationality,” or else you’ll actually be helping them to elect people they like. Imagine that! 3.) “Does a woman have a right to control her own body? As a general proposition, sure.” A lie, made manifest in the next two lines. 4.) “The question is whether that right trumps all other rights, including those of her unborn child. You think it does.” Unborn child? The correct term here is fetus. Those who have been trying eliminate abortion and reproductive rights (the two are inextricably linked, and do mean different things, though not so much to right wingers and Bible believers) have succeeded in using hyperbole and incorrect terminology to their advantage. Does abortion destroy a potential human life? Yes. Does abortion cause the murder of an “unborn child?” No. Does arcane\_eye think she has a right to control of her body? I’ll bet she does, and I and tens of millions of others do too. Once the baby is born, and outside the womb, then it is sentient, and has the same rights as the rest of us walking around humans, subject to the same legal and illegal whims of others. You know, like being blown to hash in illegal wars, hit by cars, educated in the finest schools, employed at the age of eight in some sweatshop, or getting lots of stuff for Christmas. 5.) “_You need to understand how foolishly radical that view is_.” (italics mine) This is where what little pretense to civility of the Straight Dope’s reply goes right out the window. The urge to totalitarianism is readily apparent here (“you need to understand”), and so is utter contempt (foolishly). Radical? There’s nothing radical about it at all; the quote from the Supreme Court that follows is vague, and doesn’t suggest that my and arcane\_eyes views are radical. (“”With this we do not agree,”” the Supreme court said. I take that to mean that they simply didn’t agree with the idea that ““(a) woman’s right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses.””) 6.)“I advocated a different view: bestow personhood on the fetus at the point at which brain function starts . . . Better that, I felt than to let extremists take the pro-choice argument over a cliff . . . The logic of the absolutist position . . . the life of the unborn child may be ended without a pang. The notion seems primitive, like something out of the Old Testament. \* No wonder the abortion opponents go nuts\*.” (italics mine) Do you mean abortion opponents like the Straight Dope? Does the Straight Dope think that women like arcane\_eye are a bunch of unfeeling cretins who make decisions about, among other things, abortion, “without a pang?” As for the italicized line, see items one and two above. 7.) “That brings us to the rape/incest/birth defect exception.” So, arcane\_eye is the extremist? A woman gets sexually assaulted by some violent criminal, and she is then forced to carry the pregnancy to term? More totalitarian urges revealed in this odious paragraph; with a bit of twisted logic at the end to cap off the rant about those troublesome “exceptions” and the fools who think they might have some value. 8.) “Look at this from a practical standpoint. The failure to find a middle ground on abortion has been a major contributor to the polarized politics that has plagued the country since Roe was handed down.” What? Does the Straight Dope really think that there is a “middle ground” here? There is no middle ground on abortion, there never was one, and there never will be. The chief opponents of abortion rights are Bible-believing Christian conservatives and reactionaries, with the Catholics as a strong force in there as well. I know these people, I’m related to a few of them, and they are implacable on this. They don’t think a woman has any right to an abortion, and they are doing everything they can to prevent women from getting abortions. 9.) “So lay off with the yammering about how I’m a misogynist. I’m trying to help you out.” Ah, the worst comes last. The entire preceding farrago strongly suggested that the Straight Dope has a problem with women, and the last patronizing, sexist line proves it. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/2 "2008-11-25T00:14:52Z")
Ahhhh…Thank You, Tim! The straw man is beginning to look more like a misogynist hiding behind a straw man. Tim, will you please read my last thread starter and tell me what you think of that? I’m starting to feel rather dismissed and ignored. Plenty have read it, but sadly, no replies. ---
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/3 "2008-11-25T01:57:09Z")
> [@TimJ](#): > > There is no middle ground on abortion, there never was one, and there never will be. Well, that doesn’t give us much of a basis for discussion, does it? ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/4 "2008-11-25T02:31:40Z")
Cecil, I have a perfectly valid basis for discussion on my last thread, ‘Babes on the doorstep’ and since i was large enough to apologize and admit I was wrong, I think it would be fair and decent of you to at least consider my point. As a nationally syndicated columnist and a considered expert interested in fighting ignorance, you have a good deal more power than us late-night ordinary web goons. Being that you did insult a feminist in print, I have an interest in keeping it real, and making sure that your information is correct and fair. Especially in light of the fact that neither I nor Baldwin ever heard another word from the Moderator about erroneously accusing us of being insulting on this discussion board! ---
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/5 "2008-11-25T02:59:08Z")
**bmoreluv** , I didn’t respond to your other post because you impute to me views I don’t hold. Unless I misunderstand, we don’t have a fundamental disagreement. Why are you determined to pick a fight? ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/6 "2008-11-25T03:21:44Z")
I have not accused you of being a misogynist, Cecil. I only suspect that you are. And i do have a real problem with nationally syndicated sexism, as i have with racism, so of course I am not going to let it go by without making an issue of it whenever I smell it. If you are indeed misogyny-free, i am giving you an opportunity to prove it here. My question is…Why didn’t you mention the lack of availability to birth control and abortions as a cause of infant abandonment? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/7 "2008-11-25T03:26:57Z")
[quote=“TimJ, post:1, topic:474358”] I read it three times, looking for some clue that might have revealed it as sarcasm, but no luck, which is too bad, but I don’t get surprised all that much anymore.QUOTE] I know how you feel, I kept reading that column looking for something that showed Cecil has ‘an even more distrurbing view on rape’\* As **arcane-eye** states, but I never found it. Unless I’m way off, Cecil is suggesting that _after_ the start of brainwave activity at about 25 weeks, is a logical point to bestow personhood and legal rights on a fetus, and that _after that_ the risk of life to the mother is the only reason for an abortion. I am pro choice I am not religious I think this is a reasonable solution. In my nursing career I have cared for children born prematurely at 25 weeks and I think that any attempt to define a womans reproductive freedon to include the right to terminate at 30 or 35 weeks will never fly with a large enough portion of society as to constitute taking pro-choice over a cliff. \*[Life Begins When You Realize that Women have Rights - Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489718) ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/8 "2008-11-25T03:36:21Z")
I didn’t suggest that. I’m asking a simple question. I would not be able to live with myself if i terminated a fetus that i could feel kicking. I am not a monster, and i am not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/9 "2008-11-25T03:38:23Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > I have not accused you of being a misogynist, Cecil. I only suspect that you are. And i do have a real problem with nationally syndicated sexism, as i have with racism, so of course I am not going to let it go by without making an issue of it whenever I smell it. If you are indeed misogyny-free, i am giving you an opportunity to prove it here. > My question is…Why didn’t you mention the lack of availability to birth control and abortions as a cause of infant abandonment? Maybe because this is the question that was asked: Having grown up on Looney Tunes, Tom & Jerry and similar cartoons, I can’t tell you how many I’ve watched involving a baby left on a doorstep. Did people really do this back when these cartoons were made? Was there a rash of baby abandonment somewhere back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s that cartoonists decided to satirize? Not why did it happen? Additionally, I’ve heard it suggested that term delivery and abandonment was once safer than abortion. If this was so, or even if it was just believed, it might skew the abandonment rates with regard to abortion availability. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/10 "2008-11-25T03:42:26Z")
Safer is a moot point, since many women die in childbirth. Furthermore, Cecil states the reasons for abandonment in his article. If he states it in print, I oughta be able to argue that point on this forum, right? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/11 "2008-11-25T03:43:11Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > I didn’t suggest that. I’m asking a simple question. I would not be able to live with myself if i terminated a fetus that i could feel kicking. I am not a monster, and i am not stupid. my post was actually directed to **timj** that’s why I quoted his OP in it. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/12 "2008-11-25T03:47:44Z")
You quoted me from my post. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/13 "2008-11-25T03:56:38Z")
no, I didn’t ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/14 "2008-11-25T04:00:07Z")
This is what you posted, is it not? Quote: Originally Posted by bmoreluv I have not accused you of being a misogynist, Cecil. I only suspect that you are. And i do have a real problem with nationally syndicated sexism, as i have with racism, so of course I am not going to let it go by without making an issue of it whenever I smell it. If you are indeed misogyny-free, i am giving you an opportunity to prove it here. My question is…Why didn’t you mention the lack of availability to birth control and abortions as a cause of infant abandonment? Maybe because this is the question that was asked: Having grown up on Looney Tunes, Tom & Jerry and similar cartoons, I can’t tell you how many I’ve watched involving a baby left on a doorstep. Did people really do this back when these cartoons were made? Was there a rash of baby abandonment somewhere back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s that cartoonists decided to satirize? Not why did it happen? Additionally, I’ve heard it suggested that term delivery and abandonment was once safer than abortion. If this was so, or even if it was just believed, it might skew the abandonment rates with regard to abortion availability. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/15 "2008-11-25T04:06:21Z")
post #7 [quote=“outlierrn, post:7, topic:474358”] > [@TimJ](#): > > I read it three times, looking for some clue that might have revealed it as sarcasm, but no luck, which is too bad, but I don’t get surprised all that much anymore.QUOTE] > > I know how you feel, I kept reading that column looking for something that showed Cecil has ‘an even more distrurbing view on rape’\* As **arcane-eye** states, but I never found it. > Unless I’m way off, Cecil is suggesting that _after_ the start of brainwave activity at about 25 weeks, is a logical point to bestow personhood and legal rights on a fetus, and that _after that_ the risk of life to the mother is the only reason for an abortion. > I am pro choice > > I am not religious > > I think this is a reasonable solution. > > In my nursing career I have cared for children born prematurely at 25 weeks and I think that any attempt to define a womans reproductive freedon to include the right to terminate at 30 or 35 weeks will never fly with a large enough portion of society as to constitute taking pro-choice over a cliff. > > \*[Life Begins When You Realize that Women have Rights - Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489718) post #8 > [@bmoreluv](#): > > I didn’t suggest that. I’m asking a simple question. I would not be able to live with myself if i terminated a fetus that i could feel kicking. I am not a monster, and i am not stupid. I had not quoted you when you made this statment ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/16 "2008-11-25T04:16:01Z")
The “brainwaves” argument sounds kind of like calling cardiac contraction a “heartbeat” and attaching far more significance to it than is warranted. Many very tasty animals have heartbeats and brainwaves. “But a cow is not a person.” True. Neither is a fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/17 "2008-11-25T04:58:19Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > My question is…Why didn’t you mention the lack of availability to birth control and abortions as a cause of infant abandonment? Because it’s a secondary consideration. The primary factors are poverty and illegitimacy, as I said. Presumably if the woman weren’t poor, she’d have better access to birth control and abortion. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/18 "2008-11-25T05:03:24Z")
Nope. I am poor, and I have access to birth control. These are not secondary factors. they are primary. It is no coincidence that the biggest populations of abandoned infants correalates with the most repressive eras. ---
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/19 "2008-11-25T05:10:36Z")
> [@bmoreluv](#): > > Nope. I am poor, and I have access to birth control. These are not secondary factors. they are primary. It is no coincidence that the biggest populations of abandoned infants correalates with the most repressive eras. What are you talking about? Prior to the last century, reliable birth control wasn’t even available. ---
**Author:** ![bmoreluv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3d9bf3/32.png) [@bmoreluv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoreluv)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358/20 "2008-11-25T05:17:17Z")
Excuse me. i was trying to edit that post and it timed out. that is not what i wanted to say. What i want to say is; The primary factors are lack of education and reproductive rights. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-rights-womens-rights/474358.md?page=2)