# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/1 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")
> [@New Oklahoma Abortion Bill hands over final say to males](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-oklahoma-abortion-bill-hands-over-final-say-to-males/779456/183): > > Also, of course, the thread has devolved into a general abortion debate, having left the actual point of the OP far behind. > > Always happens. From the mother thread. Now it’s the OP. “Pro-life”, “Pro-choice”, Pro-inbetween". Where are you at? Why? I feel that the choice to conceive was made at the time of conception. That abortion is just a horrible little murderous mulligan, and that it’s still the mothers choice, from sex til death do they part… to a point. Where should I draw that line? The line between life and choice? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/2 "2017-02-13T02:32:30Z")
I think a clump of cells small enough to fit in a coke spoon doesn’t meet my definition of “person,” and so the concept of “murder” doesn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/3 "2017-02-13T02:40:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think a clump of cells small enough to fit in a coke spoon doesn’t meet my definition of “person,” and so the concept of “murder” doesn’t apply. I always did my coke in lines. How many months is a spoons worth of baby? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/4 "2017-02-13T02:42:35Z")
Personally, pro-choice, pretty much all the way. Earlier abortions are better than later ones – and that’s one reason to have very, very little respect for laws which make it difficult for a woman to obtain one. That just delays her, making the abortion come later in the term of the pregnancy. Let the woman have her abortion, safely, and it’ll happen earlier in the term. Safer for her, and less issue regarding the personhood of the developing fetus. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/5 "2017-02-13T02:55:41Z")
Pro-choice. Literally all the way until delivery in the ideal. But I will accept that until viability might be the best compromise it’s possible to get in reality. I believe that people have the right to bodily autonomy - to not have their organs used by another against their will - and that right is absolute. If the fetus can be removed in such a way as it survives and another can raise it, so be it. If not, then it will die, and I’m okay with that. If there’s a God, S/he will take care of the soul of the dead. If there isn’t, then there’s nothing to fret about. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/6 "2017-02-13T03:09:44Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I feel that the choice to conceive was made at the time of conception. By this do you mean that a man and a woman choose to have a baby everytime they have sex? Are you opposed to birth control? If not what was the choice if the birth control fails? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/7 "2017-02-13T03:19:51Z")
Pro-life, except in the case of serious health threats to the mother and the case of non-viable fetuses. The reason is obvious: I think intentionally killing innocent people is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/8 "2017-02-13T03:27:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The reason is obvious: I think intentionally killing innocent people is wrong. Here’s the thing… Almost no one who says this believes this. How do I know? Imagine there were death centers where we took kids (up to age 18) to be killed if their parents decided they were done with them (for whatever reason). If **Hector\_St\_Clare** was consistent this is the same thing as abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/9 "2017-02-13T03:39:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Here’s the thing… > > Almost no one who says this believes this. > > How do I know? > > Imagine there were death centers where we took kids (up to age 18) to be killed if their parents decided they were done with them (for whatever reason). > > If **Hector\_St\_Clare** was consistent this is the same thing as abortion. The other example I’ve heard is this: Imagine a fire at an IVF clinic. You have time to save a box containing 24 human embryos or one 2 year old child. Not even the most pro-life among us would grab the box and leave the child there to burn. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/10 "2017-02-13T03:44:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > By this do you mean that a man and a woman choose to have a baby everytime they have sex? Are you opposed to birth control? If not what was the choice if the birth control fails? I mean that by choosing to have sex that the couple took a calculated risk. Birth control failure rate is part of the calculation. Both partys had a choice to not conceive, but if they do it was a known risk. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/11 "2017-02-13T04:06:49Z")
The smaller and less developed before you kill it, the better. You are killing a developing human. Don’t kid yourself otherwise. 20 weeks we’re looking at a baby about the size of [a small banana](http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-20-weeks_1109.bc). I couldn’t kill it. I’d man up and raise it, which is of course what the law already expects and requires of men. Yes, it’s killing babies. Yes, better to be legal than not. Otherwise, we just have to pay for it as a society and it’s crueler I think to force a child into an environment it isn’t wanted or loved or nurtured. Sucks, but should be legal. State[fetal homicide laws](http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx)add another wrinkle. If it’s okay for the mother to kill her child, it probably shouldn’t be a crime if someone else kills it. If it is considered homicide, then it is for the mother too. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/12 "2017-02-13T04:20:56Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Pro-life, except in the case of serious health threats to the mother and the case of non-viable fetuses. > > The reason is obvious: I think intentionally killing innocent people is wrong. Do you also support welfare, food stamps, WIC, prenatal care, housing assistance, job training, childcare, healthcare (all paid through public assistance) or does caring end at birth? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/13 "2017-02-13T04:34:03Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I mean that by choosing to have sex that the couple took a calculated risk. Birth control failure rate is part of the calculation. Both partys had a choice to not conceive, but if they do it was a known risk. And that’s great for you - and I assume that you and your partners have this discussion before proceeding to calculate. Do not imply that because that is the way you feel - all others should feel similarly - you do not know the circumstances that others may find themselves in. IOW - its a personal - extremely personal - choice for the individual. And its none of your business what choice they make - nor for what reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/14 "2017-02-13T04:40:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Do you also support welfare, food stamps, WIC, prenatal care, housing assistance, job training, childcare, healthcare (all paid through public assistance) Yes. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/15 "2017-02-13T04:52:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Pro-choice. Literally all the way until delivery in the ideal. But I will accept that until viability might be the best compromise it’s possible to get in reality. > > I believe that people have the right to bodily autonomy - to not have their organs used by another against their will - and that right is absolute. If the fetus can be removed in such a way as it survives and another can raise it, so be it. If not, then it will die, and I’m okay with that. If there’s a God, S/he will take care of the soul of the dead. If there isn’t, then there’s nothing to fret about. ^^^ What **WhyNot** said. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/16 "2017-02-13T04:56:10Z")
> [@simster](#): > > And that’s great for you - and I assume that you and your partners have this discussion before proceeding to calculate. > > Do not imply that because that is the way you feel - all others should feel similarly - you do not know the circumstances that others may find themselves in. > > IOW - its a personal - extremely personal - choice for the individual. And its none of your business what choice they make - nor for what reasons. I’ve made no implication. I’ve stated how I feel. The circumstances of others is a combination of choice and chance. The topic is morality. Is it none of my business that you murder children? Is it none of yours? Tell me how you feel, but don’t tell me what to feel. That personal choice was to be made, for or better or worse, before the fucking ever started. If you want pleasure than fine, but pay the consequences as we all do. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/17 "2017-02-13T04:58:44Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You are killing a developing human. Don’t kid yourself otherwise. > > 20 weeks we’re looking at a baby about the size of [a small banana](http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-20-weeks_1109.bc). > > I couldn’t kill it. I’d man up and raise it, which is of course what the law already expects and requires of men. > > Yes, it’s killing babies. Yes, better to be legal than not. Otherwise, we just have to pay for it as a society and it’s crueler I think to force a child into an environment it isn’t wanted or loved or nurtured. I don’t disagree with that. Not all killing is murder. Abortion is a form of killing that should be legal and available, and the person who gets to make the relevant decision is the pregnant person. > [@](#): > > State[fetal homicide laws](http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx)add another wrinkle. If it’s okay for the mother to kill her child, it probably shouldn’t be a crime if someone else kills it. I don’t agree with that. I have a right to get my tongue pierced if I want to. If you pierce my tongue without my consent, that’s assault. I would not write the laws as “fetal homicide” but as crime against the mother that are akin to murder in the severity of offense that they constitute. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/18 "2017-02-13T05:05:50Z")
If I decide to have a healthy lung or kidney removed and trashed, then my sanity is questioned. If I decide to have a health fetus removed than I’m exercising a rightful choice? What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/19 "2017-02-13T05:06:31Z")
Abortion should remain legal because otherwise women will be mutilated or die from botched illegal ones. But make no mistake, you are killing a person. If you can live with that, it’s on you if you have one. One of the main reasons for my remaining celibate was the risk of pregnancy. If that had happened, the only acceptable route for me would’ve been to carry the child to term and then give the baby up for adoption. That was too much trouble for some quickies in the sack. Whenever there’s some story of a girl who gives birth and then stuffs the baby into the garbage, I find all the outrage ironic. After all, if she had had the child aborted, that would’ve been her choice and just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/20 "2017-02-13T05:26:05Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The reason is obvious: I think intentionally killing innocent people is wrong. This is an example of the absolutely infuriating rhetoric from the pro-life side. News flash: **Those of us on the pro-choice side also believe killing innocent people is wrong. We just do not consider a fetus to be a person.** I am not a baby killer, and by continuing to insinuate that I am one by supporting choice is not constructive debate - it is just being inflammatory. Now on the to OP’s question. Long ago I confirmed my pro-choice position through a logical process. I base this approach on two firm beliefs: (1) Allowing someone to procreate by force is antithetical to a civilized society. A woman cannot by required to complete a pregnancy which was initiated by rape (or incest, although in the sense that the term incest is used in such cases it is really rape). (2) A child cannot be punished for the wrongdoings of his or her parent(s). Assume two alternatives: (a) a fetus is a child and (b) a fetus, while it could develop into a child eventually, is _not yet_ a child. Of these two alternatives, only (b) is mutually compatible with (1) and (2). Therefore, (b) is true. And if (b) is true, then it is true in all cases and not just in the event of rape: a fetus is not a child. There is only one human’s rights involved in the abortion decision, and that’s the pregnant woman’s. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=2)