# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/181 "2017-02-15T22:05:29Z")
> [@Doubticus](#): > > [What % of fertilized human eggs die? - attach uterus uteruswall | Ask MetaFilter](http://ask.metafilter.com/203529/What-of-fertilized-human-eggs-die) > > You think 190,000 sounds high, how about 80 million? It is estimated that around 40% of fertilized egg cells do not implant on the uterus and die. So let’s talk about the notion that life begins at conception. Not sure what your point is. Something can’t die if it wasn’t alive to start with. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/182 "2017-02-15T22:32:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Not sure what your point is. Something can’t die if it wasn’t alive to start with. Ermmm, “fertilized egg” is the same thing as “conception”. So if life begins at conception, they’re alive. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/183 "2017-02-16T03:31:36Z")
The **only** situation in which an abortion is morally right is one that spares a hopelessly ill and/or malformed child a life filled with unavoidable pain. There are other situations when it is the lesser of two evils and understandable, but that does not make them morally right. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/184 "2017-02-16T03:32:05Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > You’re evading the main point by talking about the exceptions. It’s just fine with you to take away a woman’s choices about her own body, and you’d do so without the slightest regret or compunction. And you justify it by saying “It’s her own fault.” As if you are in a position to judge let alone enforce against abortion by an individual. > > I never said you did. You drew that implication. I said you suffer from the syndrome, and that it happens to be most common among the very religious. (Cute joke, btw, but you know exactly what I’m saying.) It’s not just fine with me to take a woman’s choice. Not even a little bit. Wouldnt do it even if i could. Did you read the whole post? I don’t suffer from the syndrome. My views aren’t a deficiency in my personality, nor some sickness that just needs a cure. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/185 "2017-02-16T07:33:15Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > You don’t like my point of view, so I have no empathy? Interesting argument.:rolleyes: No. **You** said you have no empathy. My response was not argument, it was agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/186 "2017-02-16T07:41:45Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > There’s but a single entity in each of your examples. There’s two to make a baby and a different two(minimum) affected by an abortion. Though they are a medical in nature they also can’t be avoided by any one measure and a few may be genetic. The last one is similar to “I accidently had sex”. You constructed them to make yourself sound more reasonable I assume, reminds me of a straw man for some reason… Not at all. What I’m trying to get to, is: Do you feel it is a general principle that people should just suffer the consequences of their earlier actions, across the spectrum of possible cases? Or do you feel that there are some situations where we offer them help out of the hole they dug themselves, but others where we _could_ help, but you feel we _should_ not? - And if the latter, what is the actual rationale for the differences. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/187 "2017-02-16T13:26:00Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, drugs should be legalized unconditionally, and then the usage/abuse issues should be dealt with. As in Portugal. Because having them be illegal has not shown any particular advantage. Just as having abortion be illegal never showed any benefit. Drugs were probably a bad example. I should have used something that would be universally admitted as something to avoid. But you have pointed out the basic disconnect. There is no benefit to outlawing abortion, if a fetus is not a separate human life. If it is, then outlawing abortion has the benefit of reducing the murder of children. And there is no way to prove either belief. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/188 "2017-02-16T13:50:02Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Not at all. What I’m trying to get to, is: > Do you feel it is a general principle that people should just suffer the consequences of their earlier actions, across the spectrum of possible cases? > Or do you feel that there are some situations where we offer them help out of the hole they dug themselves, but others where we _could_ help, but you feel we _should_ not? > > - And if the latter, what is the actual rationale for the differences. I dont know about suffering. Perhaps accepting the consequences would be a more suitable term. Ive no problem helping those in need under most conditions, except maybe those that continually or repeatedly(and intentionally or through neglect) place themselves in an adverse position while still expecting others to come to their aid. Of course specifics would need to be addressed on a case by case bassis. On the could but shouldn’t front; the only example I can think of at the moment that applies to the subject matter would be late term abortion. I think making a decision within a reasonable time, say the first trimester, is imperative. > [@Mangetout](#): > > No. **You** said you have no empathy. My response was not argument, it was agreement. I did. Under a very specific condtion, but even that isn’t completely accurate. The case of pregnant teens blinded by emotion or as a result emotional manipulation, now locked into making a heart breaking choice comes to mind. - As some one said upthread. Abortion as a choice, with time limits, combined with the proper education and resources to make an informed decision would be best in my mind. Barring scientific advancements that may change the game. The thing around here is that the education and resources only barely exist or are applied in a way that they aren’t near as affective as they may otherwise be. That’s bullshit, but getting funding for anything other than abstinence education can be difficult depending on where you live. How anyone could withhold the information to make a proper decision and then hold that person completely accountable for the result is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/189 "2017-02-16T13:58:20Z")
Missed the edit window to clarify. The education and resources I mentioned should cover abortion as well as pregnancy prevention methods that incude abstinence as well as social pressure and contraception among other things. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/190 "2017-02-16T14:24:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I’d say increased psychological issues on the order of an average of 60% is more than just statistically significant. > > I’m hoping that gay thing is a joke. Comparing that to actually having to bear the fetus and make the decision is ludicrous on its face. No, the whole gay thing is not a joke. I’ve seen anti-abortion protesters hand out pamphlets that make the claim that homosexuality has increased since abortion was made legal. How do they get those “60%” stats. Ask a woman if she’s had an abortion and if she ever has been depressed. Then, obviously, the abortion caused the depression? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/191 "2017-02-16T15:38:16Z")
In most cases where people argue for “facing the consequences of your action”, there’s an assumption (explicitly stated or otherwise) that the action itself is risky, irresponsible, and inappropriate. _Other_ actions that might incur unwanted consequences if we didn’t implement strategies to offset those consequences aren’t generally viewed the same way. We don’t say “don’t let your children swim and then cry if they drown”, we hire lifeguards. Sex is good. Sexual relationships are good. Sexuality is good. There are several risks involved, including emotional ones as well as reproductive ones. We should install the various equivalents of lifeguards —classes and counseling services for discussing feelings and expectations and how to manage relationships, reproductive counseling and technologies to manage fecundity, and so forth. [QUOTE=K2500] The slut had her choice to make, she punishes herself. In the case of rape the girl didn’t, it’s a small concession to make to assure she at least gets to decide weather to keep it. [/quote] That the world “slut” appears in this thread somewhere other than as part of a prochoice poster’s cynical attribution/projection of prolife attitude is seriously fucking creepy and revealing. Sex is good. If your daughter experiments with sexual activity, this is normal and good. If the young woman living on university campus is sexually active, this is healthy and appropriate and good. What the fuck is _with_ people who not only don’t think it good but are so hostile about it that they’d engineer social punishments to take out their wrath on sexually active women? ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/192 "2017-02-16T16:05:47Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Sex is good. Sexual relationships are good. Sexuality is good. There are several risks involved, including emotional ones as well as reproductive ones. We should install the various equivalents of lifeguards —classes and counseling services for discussing feelings and expectations and how to manage relationships, reproductive counseling and technologies to manage fecundity, and so forth. > > That the world “slut” appears in this thread somewhere other than as part of a prochoice poster’s cynical attribution/projection of prolife attitude is seriously fucking creepy and revealing. > > … So I can say slut if I’m on your team and your cool with it, but I cant say slut in response to another’s argument or I’m a creep? Maybe I should have said “In the case of person A’ whom you cynically and inappropriately referred to as a slut, my opinion is that…” Would that have pleased you? There’s more than two camps on this issue and I question whether you took the time to inform yourself on my particular position before calling me out without context. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/193 "2017-02-16T16:29:42Z")
If you’re riding your bike and you fall and break your arm, well you knew the risks of bike riding. Tough shit, no cast for you. Consequences! ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/194 "2017-02-16T16:34:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If you’re riding your bike and you fall and break your arm, well you knew the risks of bike riding. Tough shit, no cast for you. Consequences! Already been covered. That’s like saying I accidentally had sex. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/195 "2017-02-16T16:35:45Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Already been covered. That’s like saying I accidentally had sex. You were “accidently” riding the bike? ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/196 "2017-02-16T16:43:21Z")
Deleted. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/197 "2017-02-16T16:47:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You were “accidently” riding the bike? I suppose it’s a little more like accidental conception, I see your point, but then I’d argue that a cast is fixing something broken where abortion is breaking something to fix it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/198 "2017-02-16T16:51:15Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I suppose it’s a little more like accidental conception, I see your point, but then I’d argue that a cast is fixing something broken where abortion is breaking something to fix it. When the “something” is “an unwanted presence inside my body”, then fixing the problem might indeed require something to be broken. IMO, it doesn’t matter how the unwanted presence got there – if it’s unwanted, people should have the right to evict it. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/199 "2017-02-16T16:54:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When the “something” is “an unwanted presence inside my body”, then fixing the problem might indeed require something to be broken. IMO, it doesn’t matter how the unwanted presence got there – if it’s unwanted, people should have the right to evict it. If it’s been there long enough I think it should get to live out the lease. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/200 "2017-02-16T20:22:29Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > If it’s been there long enough I think it should get to live out the lease. And you thought getting your MIL to leave after thanksgiving dinner was tough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=11)