# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![rotntoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@rotntoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rotntoe)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/241 "2017-02-25T04:36:43Z")
I think that if men had to deal with abortion on a biological issue. Am I saying that right? There would be a clinic in every neighborhood, with a pool table and a wet bar. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/242 "2017-02-25T14:58:26Z")
A quote that’s been attributed to several different women is “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/243 "2017-02-25T15:12:16Z")
Heard that a million times. More likely, men would plop out babies, go back to work that day and brag with their buddies about whose pregnancy was the hardest but they did it anyway. And women have never been shy about telling men what they should and shouldn’t do. Abortion would be outlawed because it might kill a female. ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/244 "2017-02-26T19:57:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Pro-life, except in the case of serious health threats to the mother and the case of non-viable fetuses. > > The reason is obvious: I think intentionally killing innocent people is wrong. Do you believe a frozen Embryo is a frozen child? Life began eons ago,it is a passed on thing. Do you also mourn the death of a man’s sperm that didn’t make it to the ova or all the sperm that die? They have human life that they lose. ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/245 "2017-02-26T20:00:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > The smaller and less developed before you kill it, the better. You are killing a developing human. Don’t kid yourself otherwise. > > 20 weeks we’re looking at a baby about the size of [a small banana](http://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-20-weeks_1109.bc). > > I couldn’t kill it. I’d man up and raise it, which is of course what the law already expects and requires of men. > > Yes, it’s killing babies. Yes, better to be legal than not. Otherwise, we just have to pay for it as a society and it’s crueler I think to force a child into an environment it isn’t wanted or loved or nurtured. > > Sucks, but should be legal. > > State[fetal homicide laws](http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx)add another wrinkle. If it’s okay for the mother to kill her child, it probably shouldn’t be a crime if someone else kills it. If it is considered homicide, then it is for the mother too. If the woman is in danger of dying and has a reason of self defence is that moral in your belief? ---
**Author:** ![jacobson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85f322/32.png) [@jacobson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacobson)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/246 "2017-02-26T20:15:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Czarcasm: > > That’s a very strange line of reasoning. I’d think the opposite - G-d made sex fun in order to encourage procreation. If it were only for procreation then why is it pleasurable for sterile women or people past the age of being able to bear a child, like one past menapause? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/247 "2017-02-26T20:30:15Z")
> [@jacobson](#): > > Do you believe a frozen Embryo is a frozen child? Life began eons ago,it is a passed on thing. Do you also mourn the death of a man’s sperm that didn’t make it to the ova or all the sperm that die? They have human life that they lose. To be completely fair, two out of three of these are weak arguments. No one on the pro-life side mourns unfertilized ova, and very, very few mourn wasted sperm. (Some oppose sex that is not performed for the purpose of procreation, and some oppose masturbation, but almost no one holds every sperm to be a potential human life.) However, yes, many on that side do hold frozen embryos to be human lives, and oppose their destruction, as well as opposing their unnecessary creation. (Many on the pro-life side do not object to in vitro fertilization, to help a woman conceive when other methods fail. However, they are not happy when several embryos are created this way, yet only one is implanted.) As much as I disagree with these guys, it is best to try to understand what they really believe, so as to avoid making erroneous assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/248 "2017-02-28T03:58:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And how long should it be in there to qualify to “live outthe lease”? I’d give it maybe three weeks to a month from discovery. Well, considering some people, I’d give it three weeks to a month from the time a reasonable person would have discovered it. Of course we both know that any increment of time would be completely arbitrary and subjective, I’d bet it’s why you asked. > [@Weisshund](#): > > :big snip: > If Abortion is murder, exactly what is blowing up a clinic containing a Doctor and a bunch of women? Also murder. Maybe terrorism too. Could qualify as arson, but would definitely qualify as a bombing. I’m gonna go with arsoninistic terrorist murder bombing of the murders. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/249 "2017-02-28T04:18:27Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I’d give it maybe three weeks to a month from discovery. Well, considering some people, I’d give it three weeks to a month from the time a reasonable person would have discovered it. Of course we both know that any increment of time would be completely arbitrary and subjective, I’d bet it’s why you asked. And how many low-income women do you think can come up with $1,380\* (or more) in three weeks to a month? \*[https://thinkprogress.org/pricing-american-women-out-of-abortion-one-restriction-at-a-time-c545c54f641f#.sxq5itvk4](https://thinkprogress.org/pricing-american-women-out-of-abortion-one-restriction-at-a-time-c545c54f641f#.sxq5itvk4) ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/250 "2017-02-28T13:19:34Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > And how many low-income women do you think can come up with $1,380\* (or more) in three weeks to a month? > > \*[https://thinkprogress.org/pricing-american-women-out-of-abortion-one-restriction-at-a-time-c545c54f641f#.sxq5itvk4](https://thinkprogress.org/pricing-american-women-out-of-abortion-one-restriction-at-a-time-c545c54f641f#.sxq5itvk4) I dont really know. I’m not sure it matters. If it’s deemed medically necessary then I’m pretty sure the hospital will perform now and bill you later, which gives you plenty of time to scratch up the cash. If it’s not deemed medically necessary then poor mothers are in the same boat as everyone else when it comes to the cost of medical treatment. That is, the longer you wait to get treatment that must be paid out of pocket the more exspensive things are liable to be. $1300 is on the high side, but no, it’s not cheap. No matter what method you use. Hell, a lot of it. comes down to what state you live in. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/251 "2017-02-28T13:45:04Z")
No, hospitals will not perform medically necessary abortions without pay. Not unless it’s a lifethreatening emergency that only an abortion will fix, and sometimes not even then, if they’re religious. Hospitals don’t have to provide any care but stabilizing emergency care. And yes, of course it puts her in the same boat at people who can’t afford other medical care. The difference is that no one is telling Granny that if she can’t come up with the funds for her knee replacement in a month, she can’t have it. She’s got as much time as she, her body, and her doctor are comfortable with to save up and have it done. Throwing up legal, logistical, and financial roadblocks and simultaneously shortening the window of opportunity for legal abortion are techniques for making abortion unaccessible, since they can’t quite (yet) make it completely illegal. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/252 "2017-02-28T14:57:28Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > No, hospitals will not perform medically necessary abortions without pay. Not unless it’s a lifethreatening emergency that only an abortion will fix, and sometimes not even then, if they’re religious. Hospitals don’t have to provide any care but stabilizing emergency care. > > And yes, of course it puts her in the same boat at people who can’t afford other medical care. The difference is that no one is telling Granny that if she can’t come up with the funds for her knee replacement in a month, she can’t have it. She’s got as much time as she, her body, and her doctor are comfortable with to save up and have it done. > > Throwing up legal, logistical, and financial roadblocks and simultaneously shortening the window of opportunity for legal abortion are techniques for making abortion unaccessible, since they can’t quite (yet) make it completely illegal. I stand corrected on the medically necessary front. Health care costs are a related but very different topic. Requiring payment for services may be a barrier, but I don’t think it’s stepping on anyone’s right to choose. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/253 "2017-02-28T15:39:18Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I stand corrected on the medically necessary front. > > Health care costs are a related but very different topic. Requiring payment for services may be a barrier, but I don’t think it’s stepping on anyone’s right to choose. I don’t have a problem with requiring payment for abortions. Doctors have bills to pay, and should be compensated for their work. What I have a problem with are the unnecessary regulations that make it more expensive than it has to be. Mandatory waiting periods requiring multiple days off work and paying for childcare, multiple appointments for things that could be done in one visit, closing down or making abortion clinic regulations so restrictive that they can’t be met, reducing the number of clinics and increasing transportation costs… These things are barriers to care that to impact the right to choose. And none them are medically necessary. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/254 "2017-02-28T15:39:49Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Requiring payment for services may be a barrier, but I don’t think it’s stepping on anyone’s right to choose. In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/255 "2017-02-28T22:14:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I don’t have a problem with requiring payment for abortions. Doctors have bills to pay, and should be compensated for their work. > > What I have a problem with are the unnecessary regulations that make it more expensive than it has to be. Mandatory waiting periods requiring multiple days off work and paying for childcare, multiple appointments for things that could be done in one visit, closing down or making abortion clinic regulations so restrictive that they can’t be met, reducing the number of clinics and increasing transportation costs… These things are barriers to care that to impact the right to choose. And none them are medically necessary. > > Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Are these regulations stayed or federal? > [@Telemark](#): > > In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread. A profound statement to be sure. Equality is a high bar to clear on any meaningful subject. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/256 "2017-02-28T22:40:07Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Are these regulations stayed or federal? Assuming you meant “state”, why does it matter? If it’s a pointless, obstructionist regulation that makes abortion harder to access while in no way improving its medical safety, what difference does the authority of the regulation make? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/257 "2017-02-28T23:27:47Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Are these regulations stayed or federal? State. North Dakota, South Dakota, Mississippi, Missouri, and Wyoming are down to one clinic that provides abortions in each state because of laws like this. Kentucky and West Virginia have 2 each. Half of Texas’s abortion clinics closed between the passing HB2, one of the worst TRAP\* laws, in the summer of 2013, and the summer of 2016. (More may have closed since, I don’t have more recent numbers.) That’s a lot of real estate without access to an abortion provider within a couple hour drive. \*Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers - not a slur, that’s what the people making the laws call them. They’re not interested in pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/258 "2017-02-28T23:42:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Assuming you meant “state”, why does it matter? If it’s a pointless, obstructionist regulation that makes abortion harder to access while in no way improving its medical safety, what difference does the authority of the regulation make? Keen eye Bryan. Looks like I was autocorrected. It matters becuase I want to know the answer, thanks. > [@WhyNot](#): > > State. > > North Dakota, South Dakota, Mississippi, Missouri, and Wyoming are down to one clinic that provides abortions in each state because of laws like this. Kentucky and West Virginia have 2 each. Half of Texas’s abortion clinics closed between the passing HB2, one of the worst TRAP\* laws, in the summer of 2013, and the summer of 2016. (More may have closed since, I don’t have more recent numbers.) > > That’s a lot of real estate without access to an abortion provider within a couple hour drive. > > \*Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers - not a slur, that’s what the people making the laws call them. They’re not interested in pretending otherwise. Ah, HB2. What a mess that was, clinics shut down everywhere. I’ve seen first hand the problems people face when they’ve got to drive 250 miles round trip for a medical procedure that was previously 10 miles away. I don’t know about 2016. We lost all of ours prior. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/259 "2017-02-28T23:48:20Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Ah, HB2. What a mess that was, clinics shut down everywhere. I’ve seen first hand the problems people face when they’ve got to drive 250 miles round trip for a medical procedure that was previously 10 miles away. I don’t know about 2016. We lost all of ours prior. Drat, I had a misplaced comma there that obscured the meaning, and it’s too late to edit. I meant, they passed HB2 and half the clinics had closed by the summer of 2016. More may have closed after that, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2017, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/260 "2017-03-01T02:21:13Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Drat, I had a misplaced comma there that obscured the meaning, and it’s too late to edit. > > I meant, they passed HB2 and half the clinics had closed by the summer of 2016. More may have closed after that, I don’t know. I live in Texas, your meaning was perfectly clear. Hb2 shut down a metric shit ton of resources where they were needed. The larger population centers have resources out the ass in a number of ways, but those of us in the sticks (pop less than 200k) get fucked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=12)