# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/41 "2017-02-13T13:33:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What’s the difference between a kidney and a fetus? > > Well, a kidney is a thing that keeps you alive. A fetus is a thing that parasitises your body’s resources, and grows to a size that will eventually injure you before it leaves and (in thankfully nowadays comparatively rare cases) may in fact kill you. > > I mean, childbirth and parenthood is a miracle of nature, but it takes a definite toll on the body of the mother. In both cases healthy human tissue is being removed. > [@Mangetout](#): > > The ‘consequences’ only exist as consequences in a wilfully-constrained context that the pro-life camp wishes to create. Execution of choice and the resulting consequences always exists in a willfully constrained context in society. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, there’s rub, isn’t it? What about those women who didn’t get to choose? > > ETA: I’m strongly pro-choice in the **WhyNot** mold. I’ve no problem with abortion in the cases of rape or medical necessity. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/42 "2017-02-13T13:40:15Z")
A fetus isn’t a person worth saving any more than a brain-dead person on a ventilator. The thing that gives value to your body is the thinking consciousness behind the eyes. If a mindless fetus or mindless corpse is destroyed nothing of value was lost. People typically push back with, “but the fetus will have a consciousness!” To that I’d respond, and an acorn will be an oak desk at some point. But destroying the acorn isn’t the same thing as destroying a desk. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/43 "2017-02-13T13:50:36Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > It’s a strong opinion. A lot of people hold this opinion. If you don’t, that’s on you. I strongly feel people should communicate better, but if you don’t, that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/44 "2017-02-13T13:51:04Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > In both cases healthy human tissue is being removed. So what? All you’ve managed to prove here is that if you ignore the differences between two things, the remainder is similar. No shit, Sherlock. > [@](#): > > Execution of choice and the resulting consequences always exists in a willfully constrained context in society. We reject your proposed constraint. Not required, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/45 "2017-02-13T13:56:07Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I’ve no problem with abortion in the cases of rape or medical necessity. Why would you allow it in cases of rape? What’s different about the fetus? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/46 "2017-02-13T14:08:30Z")
To me, the question comes down entirely to whether, and at what point, the fetus becomes a person. Once the fetus becomes a person, he or she has the same rights as any other person, and it’s morally reprehensible to kill him or her. The “bodily integrity” argument is invalid at this point, because the fetus has just as much rights to his or her body as the pregnant woman does, and abortion is a far greater violation of the fetus’s bodily integrity than pregnancy is of the woman’s. Prior to the start of personhood, there is no moral content, on either side, to the decision, and people can do whatever they want. I still, in typical situations, find abortion in such a situation to be somewhat distasteful, but my distaste is basically irrelevant, as laws should never be based on anything other than morality. Now, just when is that start of personhood? I confess that I don’t know exactly. I do, however, know that personhood is a consequence of our mental processes, which in turn arise from our brains and the other portions of our nervous systems, so I can say with absolute consequence that an embryo which has not yet developed a nervous system is definitely not a person. A reasonable criterion might be based on brain waves, or on structured brain waves (I’ve been told that there’s a distinct threshold at which fetal brain waves become structured in much the same way as adult ones). Some might argue that “personhood” begins at birth, because that’s when the baby can survive without the mother, but this is a foolish argument: A newborn baby can’t survive on its own, either, without extensive care from its parents. The logical consequence of that argument would be to consider personhood to start only at the age of majority, a consequence which I believe most of us would consider absurd. And of course, even into adulthood, some people, for various reasons, are still unable to meet their own fundamental biological needs: Stephen Hawking without all of his sophisticated medical equipment would die just as surely and as quickly as a fetus denied the environment of the womb. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/47 "2017-02-13T14:16:08Z")
> [@naita](#): > > I strongly feel people should communicate better, but if you don’t, that’s on you. Soooo, I should apologize for having this opinion? I’ve already agreed that abortion should remain legal, what more do you want? That I heartily endorse it? No, abortion is a tragedy, and morally wrong. And yes, right and wrong are all a matter of opinion. If the world had never evolved humans, and dinosaurs still ruled the earth, what would be right or wrong then? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/48 "2017-02-13T14:33:10Z")
Definitely pro-choice. I don’t believe in giving a fetus the right to use a person’s body without permission, something no other human being has. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/49 "2017-02-13T14:38:19Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I’ve no problem with abortion in the cases of rape or medical necessity. This is the particular branch of antiabortionism that I find most abhorrent. You’ve firmly established that you don’t actually give a shit about “babies” or “humans” or “persons” if you’re willing to see them “murdered” simply because they were conceived by rape. So then you cannot logically or consistently apply any of those arguments to preventing abortions at all. All you’re left with is, “Punish the slut for having sex.” > [@Chronos](#): > > To me, the question comes down entirely to whether, and at what point, the fetus becomes a person. Once the fetus becomes a person, he or she has the same rights as any other person, and it’s morally reprehensible to kill him or her. The “bodily integrity” argument is invalid at this point, because the fetus has just as much rights to his or her body as the pregnant woman does, and abortion is a far greater violation of the fetus’s bodily integrity than pregnancy is of the woman’s. The fetus has rights to its own body, sure. Not mine. It can be removed and set on that warming table over there, if you like. Bring in anyone you like to care for it, with whatever medical technology we have. If it lives, it has rights. If it dies, it doesn’t. Of course, in my state, we skip the actual removal and attempt to sustain life by using the medical determination of doctors as to whether this particular fetus might survive or not. And we call that line “viability”. It’s cheaper to use professional opinion than trial and error. I know you’ve heard the long version before, so I’ll just give the summary: Even my 12 year old daughter has no right to my kidney if she needs it to save her life. Why should a fetus - even if it’s a “person” - have more rights than a 12 year old child, who is inarguably a person? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/50 "2017-02-13T14:40:07Z")
Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. I am pro choice at least to the point of viability, after this, I am negotiable. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/51 "2017-02-13T14:53:24Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think a clump of cells small enough to fit in a coke spoon doesn’t meet my definition of “person,” and so the concept of “murder” doesn’t apply. Surely it depends when “it” is destroyed? ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/52 "2017-02-13T14:54:02Z")
(A) Liberals strongly support abortion. (B) Liberals strongly support people of color. © Liberals support subsidizing of abortions through places like Planned Parenthood. If A, B, & C, are true, how would you feel if someone open up clinics in urban areas and offered women of color free abortions? Perhaps, even incentivized them to have abortions. Would they be good liberals or would they have nefarious intentions? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/53 "2017-02-13T14:55:17Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > This is the particular branch of antiabortionism that I find most abhorrent. You’ve firmly established that you don’t actually give a shit about “babies” or “humans” or “persons” if you’re willing to see them “murdered” simply because they were conceived by rape. So then you cannot logically or consistently apply any of those arguments to preventing abortions at all. All you’re left with is, “Punish the slut for having sex.” And worse, ‘punish her by forcing her to be a mother against her will’. How sensible a punishment is that anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/54 "2017-02-13T14:58:34Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. > > I am pro choice at least to the point of viability, after this, I am negotiable. I’ve never quite understood the weight given to “the point of viability”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/55 "2017-02-13T14:59:53Z")
**WhyNot** , your 12-year-old daughter _does_ have a right to your parental care, and you legally cannot withdraw that care without first making sure that she’ll get equivalent care from some other source. And if it’s impossible to ensure equivalent care from some other source, then withdrawal of that care is absolutely impermissible. Oh, and not apropos of **WhyNot** ’s reply, I should also mention that, although I have no objection to a law against abortion past some relevant threshold, I don’t think that such a law is the best or most effective measure to take against abortion. The most effective measure would be to determine why women want to have abortions, and to address those reasons. I haven’t done the research, but I suspect that poverty is a major driver, and so there should be measures both to decrease poverty in general, and to offer a greater degree of specific help for both prenatal and postnatal care. Another common reason is probably pressure from men in the woman’s life, and so women’s rights vis-a-vis those of the men pressuring them should also receive greater attention. A wide variety of preventive birth control measures should also be easily available. The societal stigma against unwed pregnancy should be decreased, as some women feel compelled to have abortions to “hide the evidence”, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/56 "2017-02-13T15:07:15Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > (A) Liberals strongly support abortion. > (B) Liberals strongly support people of color. > (C) Liberals support subsidizing of abortions through places like Planned Parenthood. > > If A, B, & C, are true, how would you feel if someone open up clinics in urban areas and offered women of color free abortions? Perhaps, even incentivized them to have abortions. Would they be good liberals or would they have nefarious intentions? “Hi, and welcome to Planned Parenthood. Have you heard about our Abortion Rewards Card program for non-whites? 10,000 fetus points if you refer a friend!” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/57 "2017-02-13T15:07:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **WhyNot** , your 12-year-old daughter _does_ have a right to your parental care, and you legally cannot withdraw that care without first making sure that she’ll get equivalent care from some other source. And if it’s impossible to ensure equivalent care from some other source, then withdrawal of that care is absolutely impermissible. You’re moving the goalposts. Your statement was about “the “bodily integrity” argument”. Not about “care”. Nonetheless, I already addressed the care argument. Remove the fetus, and let anyone else you like take care of it. I do not have to find a caretaker to abandon an infant; I simply have to drop it off at a police station, firehouse, or hospital or other designated area. They can decide who cares for it. Abortions past the point of viability, while vanishingly rare, are not done outside a hospital or medical clinic. So I’m already in one of the places I’m allowed to abandon my infant. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/58 "2017-02-13T15:12:05Z")
Most of the rabid anti-abortion protesters I’ve talked to think that forcing women who don’t want to be mothers into giving birth and then effortlessly putting their children up for adoption like a sack of potatoes is the way to go. Of course, only let straight, married Christian couples to adopt those babies, increasing the number of older children languishing in foster care. ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/59 "2017-02-13T15:35:40Z")
I can’t put it as eloquently as many of the others have here, but I’m completely pro-choice. I love ☹ that folks enjoy sitting up there in their golden towers, telling other people what the fuck they should do. We should all try to remember that we don’t know these individuals (who have to make these personal decisions). We don’t know the demons in their lives or the trials that lay before them. Can we have a little more passion for these people (e.g. our neighbors, cow-orkers, merchants) who are faced with these heart-wrenching decisions? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/60 "2017-02-13T15:40:15Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Soooo, I should apologize for having this opinion? > > I’ve already agreed that abortion should remain legal, what more do you want? That I heartily endorse it? No, abortion is a tragedy, and morally wrong. > > And yes, right and wrong are all a matter of opinion. If the world had never evolved humans, and dinosaurs still ruled the earth, what would be right or wrong then? It’s that little accusatory “If you don’t believe as I do, it’s on you” tag-_What’s_ on me, and why isn’t it on you too if we come to a disagreement on definitions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=4)