# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/61 "2017-02-13T15:54:14Z")
Yes, **WhyNot** , it’s legal to abandon an infant at certain designated places. That’s because those designated places have the procedures in place for ensuring that an abandoned child will get the necessary care. But while a hospital has procedures in place for ensuring care for an abandoned newborn, they do not have procedures in place for ensuring care for a four-month fetus (mostly because it’s impossible to do so with current technology). And you moved the goalposts, too, because so far as I know, nobody has ever said that a pregnant woman should be mandated to transplant a kidney to her fetus, either. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/62 "2017-02-13T15:58:21Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > I’ve never quite understood the weight given to “the point of viability”. I guess it’s the point at which additional solutions arise to the simple problem of ‘pregnant female requires no longer to be pregnant’ ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/63 "2017-02-13T16:00:02Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Exactly. Sometimes, the “consequence” of having sex is that a person chooses to have an abortion. That \*is \*“taking responsibility” for a contraceptive failure. The only way its not is if we’ve already accepted the antiabortion premise. This. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/64 "2017-02-13T16:13:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s that little accusatory “If you don’t believe as I do, it’s on you” tag-_What’s_ on me, and why isn’t it on you too if we come to a disagreement on definitions? Okay, let’s agree that we are not talking about abortion to save the life of the mother. Let us just consider an abortion for convenience’s sake. I hold the opinion that someone who has an abortion for the sake of convenience is morally wrong. Therefore, I believe that someone who has a convenience abortion has done something wrong. Yes, that’s accusatory. Deal with it. I won’t hate someone for having an abortion for convenience sake, anymore than I hate people who join the military, and kill people in battle. But killing is still wrong, in my strong opinion. I will not rub your convenience abortion in your face either. That will not solve anything, nor change your mind, nor reverse the abortion. I’ve done wrong things too. And I’ve dealt with them. Go and do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/65 "2017-02-13T16:21:50Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > (A) Liberals strongly support abortion. > (B) Liberals strongly support people of color. > (C) Liberals support subsidizing of abortions through places like Planned Parenthood. > > If A, B, & C, are true, how would you feel if someone open up clinics in urban areas and offered women of color free abortions? Perhaps, even incentivized them to have abortions. Would they be good liberals or would they have nefarious intentions? Intentions are not the single factor that determines the success or failure of a social program. As a good liberal I am in favor of free abortions under any circumstances and as an advocate of zero population growth (well, to be honest, I actually think the planet could use some negative population growth for a few generations), giving someone a financial incentive not to make a bad decision like giving birth to a child they do not want is a perfectly noble thing. Churches feed the hungry all the time for the opportunity to “minister” to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/66 "2017-02-13T16:26:55Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Okay, let’s agree that we are not talking about abortion to save the life of the mother. Let us just consider an abortion for convenience’s sake. > > I hold the opinion that someone who has an abortion for the sake of convenience is morally wrong. Therefore, I believe that someone who has a convenience abortion has done something wrong. Yes, that’s accusatory. Deal with it. > > I won’t hate someone for having an abortion for convenience sake, anymore than I hate people who join the military, and kill people in battle. But killing is still wrong, in my strong opinion. > > I will not rub your convenience abortion in your face either. That will not solve anything, nor change your mind, nor reverse the abortion. > > I’ve done wrong things too. And I’ve dealt with them. Go and do likewise. Well, as God’s Emissary it is my duty to tell you that He decides when that bundle of cells becomes a thinking, breathing and viable human being, and that if He wanted sex to be for the purpose of procreation only he wouldn’t so much fun to do(and watch). Now, you might decide to ignore what I have told you, but that’s on you-I certainly won’t hate you for being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/67 "2017-02-13T16:38:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, as God’s Emissary it is my duty to tell you that He decides when that bundle of cells becomes a thinking, breathing and viable human being, and that if He wanted sex to be for the purpose of procreation only he wouldn’t so much fun to do(and watch). > Now, you might decide to ignore what I have told you, but that’s on you-I certainly won’t hate you for being wrong. Good. Then we agree to disagree, and we’re fine. 🙂 And yes, keep abortion legal. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/68 "2017-02-13T17:17:56Z")
Pro-Choice, and for a few reasons. The first is that the decision to carry a fetus to term should be the dominion of the mother alone. Laws that would force a woman to carry the child against her will, seems draconian to me. The second reason is that nature always favors established life over potential life. Many different things can cause a woman’s body to abort a fetus, illness or infection for example. If you think that human life begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg you should be horrified to know that a significant percentage of these zygotes never attach to uterine wall and are flush from the body. Yet we do not hold candle light services for these unattached zygotes. That said, I’m not a cheerleader for abortion. No matter what side of the debate you fall on, it Is a tragedy for everyone involved. My hope is that the stigma of sex is lifted and contraception options become more readily available and utilized and prevent the vast majority of abortions in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/69 "2017-02-13T17:23:47Z")
Czarcasm: > [@](#): > > and that if He wanted sex to be for the purpose of procreation only he wouldn’t so much fun to do That’s a very strange line of reasoning. I’d think the opposite - G-d made sex fun in order to encourage procreation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/70 "2017-02-13T17:32:51Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s a very strange line of reasoning. I’d think the opposite - G-d made sex fun in order to encourage procreation. And I’d like to think that if that were the case he would turn the desire down a bit when when we have got an overabundance of people. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/71 "2017-02-13T17:47:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, **WhyNot** , it’s legal to abandon an infant at certain designated places. That’s because those designated places have the procedures in place for ensuring that an abandoned child will get the necessary care. But while a hospital has procedures in place for ensuring care for an abandoned newborn, they do not have procedures in place for ensuring care for a four-month fetus (mostly because it’s impossible to do so with current technology). Right. So it dies. C’est la…mort. > [@](#): > > And you moved the goalposts, too, because so far as I know, nobody has ever said that a pregnant woman should be mandated to transplant a kidney to her fetus, either. I did \*not \*move the goalposts. I never limited them to transplantation of a kidney. I said: > [@WhyNot](#): > > Even my 12 year old daughter has no right to my kidney if she needs it to save her life. Why should a fetus - even if it’s a “person” - have more rights than a 12 year old child, who is inarguably a person? A fetus uses my kidneys for filtration and excretion of wastes, my heart and blood vessels for nutrients and removal of waste, my hormones for development and growth, and my lungs for oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange, and my digestive system, bones, fat, and muscles for nutrients. These are only ethical with my consent. For my 12 year old to use my kidney, or any other organ, it would need to be transplanted, and for that, she needs my consent. I can even give that consent, sign papers, be prepped for surgery, and then withdraw my consent and hop off the table and walk out with all my organs in situ. I can even DIE, and if I haven’t made previous arrangements to give my consent, she can’t have my organs. We give fetuses more rights than born children, and dead women more rights than pregnant ones. That’s messed up. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/72 "2017-02-13T17:49:50Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That’s a very strange line of reasoning. I’d think the opposite - G-d made sex fun in order to encourage procreation. If G-d made sex \*for \*procreation, then women past menopause, infertile people, and homosexuals wouldn’t have sex drives. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/73 "2017-02-13T18:35:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Well, as God’s Emissary it is my duty to tell you that He decides when that bundle of cells becomes a thinking, breathing and viable human being, and that if He wanted sex to be for the purpose of procreation only he wouldn’t so much fun to do(and watch). If you’d rather masturbate, that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/74 "2017-02-13T18:38:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I guess it’s the point at which additional solutions arise to the simple problem of ‘pregnant female requires no longer to be pregnant’ You have expressed whatever you are trying to say very badly. I’d have another crack if I were you, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/75 "2017-02-13T18:41:48Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > (A) Liberals strongly support abortion. > (B) Liberals strongly support people of color. > (C) Liberals support subsidizing of abortions through places like Planned Parenthood. > > If A, B, & C, are true, how would you feel if someone open up clinics in urban areas and offered women of color free abortions? Perhaps, even incentivized them to have abortions. Would they be good liberals or would they have nefarious intentions? And these charity events on TV never ask for donations to build more abortion centres in Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Maurie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Maurie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maurie)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/76 "2017-02-13T18:55:43Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > You have expressed whatever you are trying to say very badly. I’d have another crack if I were you, mate. He seemed perfectly clear to me - I’m not sure what you don’t understand so sorry if I’ve been whooshed. He is saying that once a fetus can be outside of the mother and be alive, in theory that presents an option other than abortion to allow a woman who does not want to be pregnant to no longer be pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/77 "2017-02-13T20:00:46Z")
> [@Maurie](#): > > He seemed perfectly clear to me - I’m not sure what you don’t understand so sorry if I’ve been whooshed. He is saying that once a fetus can be outside of the mother and be alive, in theory that presents an option other than abortion to allow a woman who does not want to be pregnant to no longer be pregnant. Thank you - and yes - the point of viability is a possibly significant watershed for many people in this debate because, all other factors being equal, there is one more solution for ending the pregnancy than there was previously. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/78 "2017-02-13T20:11:43Z")
Everything I would have to say has already been said in this thread, and with more eloquence than I could probably muster, but - I am completely pro-choice. Abortions for anyone who wants one, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/79 "2017-02-13T20:35:01Z")
Czarcasm: > [@](#): > > And I’d like to think that if that were the case he would turn the desire down a bit when when we have got an overabundance of people. Maybe we don’t have an overabundance of people just yet. WhyNot: > [@](#): > > If G-d made sex for procreation, then women past menopause, infertile people, and homosexuals wouldn’t have sex drives. Considering that G-d has, in the Bible, caused infertile and post-menopausal women (e.g., Sarah) to have babies, the sex drive still serves a procreative purpose. As for homosexuals, if there wasn’t temptation to sin (from a Biblical perspective), there wouldn’t be any real free choice, would there? ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/80 "2017-02-13T20:43:39Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > Everything I would have to say has already been said in this thread, and with more eloquence than I could probably muster, but - I am completely pro-choice. Abortions for anyone who wants one, no questions asked. At any time, eh? That’s hard core. Ruthless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=5)