# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/81 "2017-02-13T20:46:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Pro-choice. Literally all the way until delivery in the ideal. But I will accept that until viability might be the best compromise it’s possible to get in reality. > > I believe that people have the right to bodily autonomy - to not have their organs used by another against their will - and that right is absolute. If the fetus can be removed in such a way as it survives and another can raise it, so be it. If not, then it will die, and I’m okay with that. If there’s a God, S/he will take care of the soul of the dead. If there isn’t, then there’s nothing to fret about. Another one who takes no prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/82 "2017-02-13T20:50:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > As for homosexuals, if there wasn’t temptation to sin (from a Biblical perspective), there wouldn’t be any real free choice, would there? If everyone were gay, abortion wouldn’t be a problem because men and women wouldn’t be fucking like drunken bunnies and having so many “oops” moments with their contraception. You want a kid, you gotta plan for it and make a deal with the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/83 "2017-02-13T20:55:49Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > (A) Liberals strongly support abortion. > (B) Liberals strongly support people of color. > (C) Liberals support subsidizing of abortions through places like Planned Parenthood. > > If A, B, & C, are true, how would you feel if someone open up clinics in urban areas and offered women of color free abortions? Perhaps, even incentivized them to have abortions. Would they be good liberals or would they have nefarious intentions? Is it then safe to assume the opposite? A) Conservatives are strongly against abortion. B) Conservatives are strongly against people of c… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/84 "2017-02-13T20:58:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Intentions are not the single factor that determines the success or failure of a social program. As a good liberal I am in favor of free abortions under any circumstances and as an advocate of zero population growth (well, to be honest, I actually think the planet could use some negative population growth for a few generations), giving someone a financial incentive not to make a bad decision like giving birth to a child they do not want is a perfectly noble thing. Churches feed the hungry all the time for the opportunity to “minister” to them. Abortion has nothing to do with zero (or negative) population growth, one way or the other. There are a lot of countries with extremely restrictive abortion laws which have sub-replacement fertility rates. Six countries in the world currently have an _absolute_ prohibition on abortion with no life of the mother exceptions (i.e. well beyond what I’d support) and three of them have fertility rates below replacement, according to the CIA World Factbook. > **[List of countries by total fertility rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate)** > > This is a list of all sovereign states and dependencies by total fertility rate (TFR): the expected number of children born per woman in her child-bearing years. > The first lists show the most recent year where there is published total fertility rate (TFR) data ranked by sovereign states and dependencies, and are ordered by organization type – intergovernmental, governmental, or non-governmental organization that searched, organized, and published the data. > Country ranking by most recent years... Support abortion rights if you want based on concerns about autonomy and liberty: I think those concerns are dumb but they’re also arguments based on moral principle which I can’t really refute. At the factual level, however, abortion rights don’t appear to be either sufficient or necessary to achieve negative population growth. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/85 "2017-02-13T21:03:43Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > But make no mistake, you are killing a person. If you can live with that, it’s on you if you have one. You should realize that the pushback you were getting was centered around this part of your post. When someone says “make no mistake,” he’s expressing that it’s not a mere matter of opinion but something that applies to everyone. The primary question, and point of disagreement, about abortion is whether the fetus being aborted counts as a “person.” Until the fetus has a thinking, perceiving mind, it seems to me that the term “person” just doesn’t apply, so I’m completely OK with abortions up through the second trimester. Past that, for me, it gets ethically more murky about whether abortions should be allowed unless there are medical reasons. But I don’t anticipate that the issue of third-trimester “convenience” abortions is going to be a legal issue while I’m still alive, so my thoughts on that aspect don’t have any applicability to what laws we should consider. People have said that they want abortions to be rare, but I don’t care, except to say that birth control is a lot less physically traumatic than an abortion. But I’m perfectly OK with abortion rates going up if that helps the women who have them. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/86 "2017-02-13T21:05:04Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > I mean that by choosing to have sex that the couple took a calculated risk. Birth control failure rate is part of the calculation. Both partys had a choice to not conceive, but if they do it was a known risk. Young adults & teenagers do stupid things all the time. Sometimes they make poor choices. I’m not about to force a teenager to give birth against her will, especially when that teenager cannot provide & care for a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/87 "2017-02-13T21:18:21Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > It’s a strong opinion. A lot of people hold this opinion. If you don’t, that’s on you. So what? Holding a strong opinion doesn’t give anyone the right to determine the moral choices of others, no matter how fervent their belief in their personal mythology (and, in most cases, not having had the experience to be able to judge competently either). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/88 "2017-02-13T21:27:39Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#): > > Okay, let’s agree that we are not talking about abortion to save the life of the mother. Let us just consider an abortion for convenience’s sake. > > I hold the opinion that someone who has an abortion for the sake of convenience is morally wrong. Therefore, I believe that someone who has a convenience abortion has done something wrong. Yes, that’s accusatory. Deal with it. > > I won’t hate someone for having an abortion for convenience sake, anymore than I hate people who join the military, and kill people in battle. But killing is still wrong, in my strong opinion. > > I will not rub your convenience abortion in your face either. That will not solve anything, nor change your mind, nor reverse the abortion. > > I’ve done wrong things too. And I’ve dealt with them. Go and do likewise. Not to pick on you too much, but I’ve always disliked the use of the word ‘convenience’ in relation to abortion. As if all of the things the pregnant woman will go through, whatever her decisions end up being, could possibly be defined as merely ‘inconvenient.’ Try ‘life-altering in a major way.’ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/89 "2017-02-13T21:39:06Z")
It’s more like choosing between two major life-altering paths. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/90 "2017-02-13T21:49:45Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Abortion has nothing to do with zero (or negative) population growth, one way or the other. > > There are a lot of countries with extremely restrictive abortion laws which have sub-replacement fertility rates. Six countries in the world currently have an _absolute_ prohibition on abortion with no life of the mother exceptions (i.e. well beyond what I’d support) and three of them have fertility rates below replacement, according to the CIA World Factbook. > > [List of countries by total fertility rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate) > > Support abortion rights if you want based on concerns about autonomy and liberty: I think those concerns are dumb but they’re also arguments based on moral principle which I can’t really refute. At the factual level, however, abortion rights don’t appear to be either sufficient or necessary to achieve negative population growth. “Absolute” prohibitions on abortion have little to do with the actual incidence of abortion in any particular area. Such prohibitions only serve to increase the female mortality rate a vastly greater waste of resources than a clump of cells. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/91 "2017-02-13T21:49:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It’s more like choosing between two major life-altering paths. Is it your contention that having an abortion is inherently, or most often, “a major life-altering path?” And if so, can we get a cite for that? I don’t count, “well, otherwise she would have had a baby,” as life altering. I’m asking if your contention is that having an abortion puts most people off the path they were on before the unintended pregnancy happened. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/92 "2017-02-13T21:56:09Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Is it your contention that having an abortion is inherently, or most often, “a major life-altering path?” And if so, can we get a cite for that? > > I don’t count, “well, otherwise she would have had a baby,” as life altering. I’m asking if your contention is that having an abortion puts most people off the path they were on before the unintended pregnancy happened. > > Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk I am not saying that it is _as_ life-altering as an abortion but, giving the amount of pressure that can be placed upon an individual by the government, society, friends, family and even total strangers, a lot of the time it can add up to quite a bit of unwanted/unneeded stress. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/93 "2017-02-13T21:58:24Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > Another one who takes no prisoners. Nope. I was an unplanned teenaged mother to my son. Later, I had a micropreemie daughter born on the cusp of viability. We were offered what amounted to an abortion or a c-section. We chose c-section. So I watched a legally abortable fetus grow and develop outside the womb. I know when she began to feel pain, when I believe her soul incarnated, and when she became a person. None of those things happened until what would have been 27-29 weeks of gestation, same as the scientists tell us. Neither scenario is one that I think that anyone should have to face without consent. I believe I’m as informed as it’s humanly possible to be on this topic, from medical, ethical, and personal study. So, no, I take no prisoners and suffer no fools. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/94 "2017-02-13T21:59:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am not saying that it is _as_ life-altering as an abortion but, giving the amount of pressure that can be placed upon an individual by the government, society, friends, family and even total strangers, a lot of the time it can add up to quite a bit of unwanted/unneeded stress. Then you can provide a citation for that, yes? Because it sounds awfully close to the myths that women who have abortion suffer from regret, Depression, and mental illness as a result. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/95 "2017-02-13T22:01:34Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Is it your contention that having an abortion is inherently, or most often, “a major life-altering path?” And if so, can we get a cite for that? > > I don’t count, “well, otherwise she would have had a baby,” as life altering. I’m asking if your contention is that having an abortion puts most people off the path they were on before the unintended pregnancy happened. > > Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk i dont have any scientific data, buti can give you the data point of the two abortions i was involved with. it definitely changed their lives (and mine). if for no other reason than now it is no longer a hypothetical thing for us. not a question of what would you do if you found yourself in such a situation. i cant speak for the ladies, but for me i saw, firsthand that this is not a matter of convenience; it is a truly heartwrenching decision that has far reaching consequences and aftereffects. it changed me. it changed the way i saw life. mc ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/96 "2017-02-13T22:11:35Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Then you can provide a citation for that, yes? Because it sounds awfully close to the myths that women who have abortion suffer from regret, Depression, and mental illness as a result. > > Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk I think that was slightly sarcastic… 🙂 But you had but to ask: [The After Effects of Abortion](http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/the-after-effects-of-abortion) [Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion](http://afterabortion.org/2011/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-psychological-complications-related-to-abortion/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/97 "2017-02-13T22:19:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I think that was slightly sarcastic… 🙂 But you had but to ask: > > [The After Effects of Abortion](http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/the-after-effects-of-abortion) > > [Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion](http://afterabortion.org/2011/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-psychological-complications-related-to-abortion/) Please note that both of those websites are rabidly anti-abortion oriented. Take any info they give out with [del]a grain of salt[/del]a salt-lick. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/98 "2017-02-13T22:23:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I think that was slightly sarcastic… 🙂 But you had but to ask: > > [The After Effects of Abortion](http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/the-after-effects-of-abortion) > > [Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion](http://afterabortion.org/2011/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-psychological-complications-related-to-abortion/) Perhaps I should have been more clear. Do you have any citations from any sources who aren’t anti-choice? Because I do. And they overwhelmingly find that women who get abortions - particularly elective first term abortions, which are by far the most common kind - experience no long term regret, Depression, or other negative effects. In fact, they find that they experience greater self-esteem and less Depression than women denied abortions (which I don’t find surprising at all.) Interestingly, those whose partners accompany them to the clinic experience greater stress than those who are unaccompanied, although this stress is transitory. > **[Does abortion reduce self-esteem and life satisfaction? - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24740325/)** > > There is no evidence that abortion harms women's self-esteem or life satisfaction in the short term. > **[A comparison of depression and anxiety symptom trajectories between women who...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25628123/)** > > Women who received an abortion had similar or lower levels of depression and anxiety than women denied an abortion. Our findings do not support the notion that abortion is a cause of mental health problems. > **[Decision Rightness and Emotional Responses to Abortion in the United States:...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26154386/)** > > Women experienced decreasing emotional intensity over time, and the overwhelming majority of women felt that termination was the right decision for them over three years. Emotional support may be beneficial for women having abortions who report... > **[Women's emotions one week after receiving or being denied an abortion in the...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24020773/)** > > Difficulty with the abortion decision and the degree to which the pregnancy had been planned were most important for women's postabortion emotional state. Experiencing negative emotions postabortion is different from believing that abortion was not... > **[Psychological responses after abortion - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2181664/)** > > A review of methodologically sound studies of the psychological responses of U.S. women after they obtained legal, nonrestrictive abortions indicates that distress is generally greatest before the abortion and that the incidence of severe negative... > **[Psychological responses of women after first-trimester abortion - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10920466/)** > > Most women do not experience psychological problems or regret their abortion 2 years postabortion, but some do. Those who do tend to be women with a prior history of depression. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/99 "2017-02-13T22:24:20Z")
I just googled it and it looks like it’s still undecided as to whether women who have abortions have an increased risk of depression, mental illness, drug abuse, etc. I wouldn’t dismiss it as a myth. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/100 "2017-02-13T22:26:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Please note that both of those websites are rabidly anti-abortion oriented. Take any info they give out with [del]a grain of salt[/del]a salt-lick. Read especially the second link. I don’t care what the motivation of the people posting it have, it certainly appears to be well-supported with data. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=6)