# Abortion, the morals and ethics. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731 "2017-02-13T02:20:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/161 "2017-02-15T00:12:51Z")
Missed the edit window, and an important piece of information…self-described ‘independents’ are split almost exactly down the middle on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/162 "2017-02-15T00:24:48Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > . . . Most liberals are pro-choice and most conservatives are pro-life. . . . S’funny, but liberals could be pro-life, all glowing with optimism for opportunity and promise for the future…and conservatives could be pro-choice, defending a woman’s property rights in her own body. (I make a joke, but, in fact, there is a slice of conservatives who feel that way, and another slice who see it as a privacy issue.) ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/163 "2017-02-15T11:16:50Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I’m not going to participate in this hijack. > > Everyone saw your post that I originally replied to, so trying to act all “whatever can you mean?” now is pretty disingenuous. > > I stand by the questions that I asked, that you have not answered. Who is your audience? Who are you trying to convince? How well do you think you’re doing with that? Have you made even one person see things from your side? Or is your aim just to piss people off? It’s perfectly clear what I mean. Read it again for full understanding. But if you don’t want to read about anyone speaking about the scale of abortion you might better on another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/164 "2017-02-15T11:20:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > What number do you think appropriate, and why? The best part of a million abortions every ten years, in Britain alone, is I think, too high. Anyone know what the figure is in the USA? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/165 "2017-02-15T12:28:31Z")
Meh, it could be a million a _year_, in the UK, and I’d be just peachy with it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/166 "2017-02-15T12:51:09Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > The best part of a million abortions every ten years, in Britain alone, is I think, too high. > > Anyone know what the figure is in the USA? Anyone? The most recent figures I can find are for 2013 - > [@](#): > > In 2013, 664,435 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2013 was 12.5 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 200 abortions per 1,000 live births. [Cite](https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/). If you don’t believe a fetus has any rights that others are bound to respect, that is a meaningless figure. If you believe a fetus is a separate human life, that’s hundreds of thousands of murders. There doesn’t seem to be any way for one side to convince the other. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/167 "2017-02-15T13:00:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The most recent figures I can find are for 2013 - > [Cite](https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/). > > If you don’t believe a fetus has any rights that others are bound to respect, that is a meaningless figure. If you believe a fetus is a separate human life, that’s hundreds of thousands of murders. There doesn’t seem to be any way for one side to convince the other. > > Regards, > Shodan Right – which is why I advocate for both sides to work for comprehensive sex ed, plus free availability for contraception, to reduce unwanted pregnancies (which have already been decreasing for years). If there were evidence that such government policies significantly reduced unwanted pregnancies (and therefore abortions), would you be willing to support them, and encourage other pro-life voters to support them? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/168 "2017-02-15T14:15:25Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > The best part of a million abortions every ten years, in Britain alone, is I think, too high. I didn’t ask what you thought was too high. I asked what number you thought would be appropriate, and why. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/169 "2017-02-15T14:27:20Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > It’s perfectly clear what I mean. Read it again for full understanding. But if you don’t want to read about anyone speaking about the scale of abortion you might better on another thread. Oh the old “you just don’t understand, so read it again carefully” insult. No thanks, you were clear, I called you out on it, and now your flailing around with other insults trying to get out of defending your words. Do you really think that there is anyone here who doesn’t see right through this kind of crap? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/170 "2017-02-15T14:42:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you believe a fetus is a separate human life, that’s hundreds of thousands of murders. There doesn’t seem to be any way for one side to convince the other. I believe a fetus is a \*non-\*separate human life, and although not all killings are murders it’s hundres of thousands of _killings_. You aren’t likely to convince me that when pregnant women kill their fetus via abortion it somehow constitutes murder, that is true. I notice you haven’t reponded to the sub-thread about working together to lower the occurrence rate of unintended pregnancy among the sexually active. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/171 "2017-02-15T14:43:00Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I think that was slightly sarcastic… 🙂 But you had but to ask: > > [The After Effects of Abortion](http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/the-after-effects-of-abortion) > > [Abortion Risks: A list of major psychological complications related to abortion](http://afterabortion.org/2011/abortion-risks-a-list-of-major-psychological-complications-related-to-abortion/) Correlation does not equal causation. And remember, abortion can give men [TEH GAY](http://www.lifeissues.org/2009/04/impact-men-losing-child-abortion/) > [@](#): > > As a result of a previous experience, they do not want to be put into another situation where another pregnancy may occur and they have no control of the outcome. Some men experiment with homosexuality because it allows them to have a successful sexual relationship with no commitment and no worry of pregnancy. Men may suffer from other forms of sexual dysfunction such as impotency and addiction to pornography and masturbation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/172 "2017-02-15T15:08:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right – which is why I advocate for both sides to work for comprehensive sex ed, plus free availability for contraception, to reduce unwanted pregnancies (which have already been decreasing for years). If there were evidence that such government policies significantly reduced unwanted pregnancies (and therefore abortions), would you be willing to support them, and encourage other pro-life voters to support them? A nitpick - I am pro-choice. That having been said, reducing unwanted pregnancies doesn’t address the core issue - should the remaining abortions be allowed or prohibited? Reducing drug abuse is a good thing too - should drugs be legalized if drug abuse goes down? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/173 "2017-02-15T15:18:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A nitpick - I am pro-choice. Didn’t know that – thanks! > [@](#): > > That having been said, reducing unwanted pregnancies doesn’t address the core issue - should the remaining abortions be allowed or prohibited? Reducing drug abuse is a good thing too - should drugs be legalized if drug abuse goes down? > > Regards, > Shodan No, it doesn’t address the core issue, but it could greatly ‘soften’ it. I think a lot of pro-choice people believe that, were everyone fully knowledgeable about sex and birth control, and were birth control freely and easily available for all, unwanted pregnancies would remain at a very low and steady level. If they/we are correct, then such policies would vastly reduce the abortion rate – a result that pro-life people would presumably welcome. I’m not suggesting that pro-life people will/should stop advocating for their position, just that they should work with pro-choice people on policies that would result in fewer abortions. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/174 "2017-02-15T15:38:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [QUOTE=Shodan] > > A nitpick - I am pro-choice. Didn’t know that – thanks! [/quote] Me either, or I’d forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![Jefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@Jefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jefferson)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/175 "2017-02-15T18:24:57Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Oh the old “you just don’t understand, so read it again carefully” insult. > > No thanks, you were clear, I called you out on it, and now your flailing around with other insults trying to get out of defending your words. > > Do you really think that there is anyone here who doesn’t see right through this kind of crap? Quote exactly what I said. And tell me what is upsetting you so much. And I’ll give any guidance you require. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/176 "2017-02-15T18:39:59Z")
> [@Jefferson](#): > > Quote exactly what I said. And tell me what is upsetting you so much. And I’ll give any guidance you require. This isn’t the pit, so I’ll temper my response. I’ll go ahead and pass on your offer. Your post is perfectly visible in its entirety up the thread, no need to quote anything at this point. You’ve made it very clear the type of poster that you are and what you contribute, if you want to call it that, to the discourse here. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/177 "2017-02-15T19:38:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A nitpick - I am pro-choice. > > That having been said, reducing unwanted pregnancies doesn’t address the core issue - should the remaining abortions be allowed or prohibited? Reducing drug abuse is a good thing too - should drugs be legalized if drug abuse goes down? No, drugs should be legalized unconditionally, and then the usage/abuse issues should be dealt with. As in Portugal. Because having them be illegal has not shown any particular advantage. Just as having abortion be illegal never showed any benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/178 "2017-02-15T21:13:18Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Correlation does not equal causation. And remember, abortion can give men [TEH GAY](http://www.lifeissues.org/2009/04/impact-men-losing-child-abortion/) I’d say increased psychological issues on the order of an average of 60% is more than just statistically significant. I’m hoping that gay thing is a joke. Comparing that to actually having to bear the fetus and make the decision is ludicrous on its face. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/179 "2017-02-15T21:22:08Z")
The whole article is uncited opinion. I must say though, it’s been scientifically proven than mocking men and dismissing their feelings and alienating them from their own reproduction and parenthood is the bestest way to get them around to your side. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2017, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731/180 "2017-02-15T21:54:58Z")
> **[What % of fertilized human eggs die?](https://ask.metafilter.com/203529/What-of-fertilized-human-eggs-die)** > > What % of fertilized human eggs never attach to the uterine wall? You think 190,000 sounds high, how about 80 million? It is estimated that around 40% of fertilized egg cells do not implant on the uterus and die. So let’s talk about the notion that life begins at conception. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-morals-and-ethics/779731.md?page=10)