# Abortion: The One True Hill to die on **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401 "2018-05-18T15:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/101 "2018-05-21T23:37:24Z")
Speaking as a person who was raised by religious conservatives, I never got the idea that abortion was a race issue. It always came off as a “punish the sluts!” issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/102 "2018-05-22T00:02:27Z")
The primary reason for opposition to abortion is the desire to oppress, torture and kill women. The so-called “pro life” side has about as much concern for life as the same number of serial killers would. They are some of the most monstrous people alive. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/103 "2018-05-22T04:52:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The argument that “If you ban abortions, then there will be more deaths of women from back-alley abortions” does not work with many pro-lifers because the math of banning abortion still leads to a decrease in innocent lives lost, by the argument put forth. > > If a fetus is a life as much as a born person, and if you ban abortion in a nation where 1 million babies are aborted annually, safely and legally, and there are 87,000 women dying from illegal abortions as result, that leads to a net gain of 913,000 lives saved, or so goes the logic. > > Now, one can say that that argument is repulsive, but from a sheer mathematical standpoint, its logic is absolutely sound and consistent. Only if you ignore that 975,000 babies were still aborted, just at the cost of ~10% of the mothers’ lives. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/104 "2018-05-22T05:11:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So what does this White Man’s Woe and war stuff have to do with the subject? The people who are currently fighting the hardest to take easy access to safe abortions for American women are the people in power, and the people in power in the US are mostly rich old white men. It isn’t completely accurate for me to say that rich old white men are trying to curtail the reproductive freedoms of women in the US, but it’s closer to accurate than not. **Jake Bullet - Traffic Control** seems to be having some kind of a problem with the idea that it’s still rich old white men who are in control in the US. Sure, Hispanic guys like taking reproductive rights away from women, too, but they’re not the ones running the show. Hell, they’re not even _voting_ for who runs the show! ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/105 "2018-05-22T07:34:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The primary reason for opposition to abortion is the desire to oppress, torture and kill women. This is so laughably over the top it’s hard to even want to see (or get into) your side of the argument. I mean come on. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/106 "2018-05-22T07:41:32Z")
And Chimera - take a fucking breath already. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/107 "2018-05-22T08:19:52Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Speaking as a person who was raised by religious conservatives, I never got the idea that abortion was a race issue. It always came off as a “punish the sluts!” issue. I was raised by (English) conservative Catholics and it always came across as a “it’s wrong to kill unborn children” issue. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/108 "2018-05-22T08:44:26Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > I was raised by (English) conservative Catholics and it always came across as a “it’s wrong to kill unborn children” issue. Catholicism is a different ballgame, really. They didn’t believe in abortion before it became a political issue. They also tend to be more open to the idea that something can be a grave sin but not against the secular law. Even the most conservative Catholics seem to support separation of Church and State, whereas the Evangelicals who dominate the pro-life movement tend to lament the removal of God from our schools and country. And most American Catholics (around 68%) say one can be a good Catholic and hold a different position on abortion. This is different from when abortion became a political issue, mostly by conservative Evangelicals. People who would ordinarily reject Catholic Tradition and Doctrine that’s not directly in the Bible adopted it, because it was an emotional issue that could lead people one way or the other. Catholics in the US do not make abortion a single issue, even having pro-choice Catholic candidates and politicians. But this is the number 1 issue for much of the Religious Right. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/109 "2018-05-22T08:54:10Z")
I didn’t notice at the time, and thought my church really just was about fetuses being full babies. But since I read Cecil’s article (yes, it actually worked for me) and became pro-choice (up to viability, at minimum), I’ve noticed what others say. It’s not directly present in the talk on abortion. It was on the shame of teenager becoming pregnant, having lost her virginity. And just how the mother is treated. Sure, in theory they are “forgiven,” but there is definitely a lot of shaming, and seeing the baby as being what they deserve. The father, on the other hand did not get that same level, even when the father was known and a member of the congregation. As such, I have to reluctantly agree with the punishment hypothesis that is more against women than men. That said, I also know a guy who became suicidal because his girlfriend aborted their unplanned baby. He was a good baptist boy, and it was just so ingrained in him that it was wrong. He felt he’d sinned, because he gave in and helped her pay for it. So it still does affect men negatively. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/110 "2018-05-22T10:26:23Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > This is so laughably over the top it’s hard to even want to see (or get into) your side of the argument. > > I mean come on. People are anti abortion because they are monsters, gloatingly evil. They\* love\* it when women die because of them, and show no actual concern for the “unborn” at all. “Every woman who dies is a victory for morality” to quote Randall Terry. They consistently act in ways designed to maximize the death and suffering of omen, and show no other concerns at all. And there is no moral difference between forbidding a woman an abortion, and chaining her to a bed then raping her continuously for nine months. Anyone who supports that is utterly vile. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/111 "2018-05-22T10:35:50Z")
NM. Not worth responding to such embarrassment. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/112 "2018-05-22T11:37:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Catholicism is a different ballgame, really. They didn’t believe in abortion before it became a political issue. They also tend to be more open to the idea that something can be a grave sin but not against the secular law. Even the most conservative Catholics seem to support separation of Church and State, whereas the Evangelicals who dominate the pro-life movement tend to lament the removal of God from our schools and country. And most American Catholics (around 68%) say one can be a good Catholic and hold a different position on abortion. > > This is different from when abortion became a political issue, mostly by conservative Evangelicals. People who would ordinarily reject Catholic Tradition and Doctrine that’s not directly in the Bible adopted it, because it was an emotional issue that could lead people one way or the other. > > Catholics in the US do not make abortion a single issue, even having pro-choice Catholic candidates and politicians. But this is the number 1 issue for much of the Religious Right. I assume most Catholics don’t do \*everything \*the Pope says, my parents thought he was wrong about contraception for one. I think it’s more likely that, in Catholic families I know, abortion would be strongly discouraged and all possible help given to allow the mother to cope & be happy with their future child or at worst arrange for adoption…Evangelicals aren’t like this? I’ve never met one. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > People are anti abortion because they are monsters, gloatingly evil. They\* love\* it when women die because of them, and show no actual concern for the “unborn” at all. “Every woman who dies is a victory for morality” to quote Randall Terry. They consistently act in ways designed to maximize the death and suffering of omen, and show no other concerns at all. > > And there is no moral difference between forbidding a woman an abortion, and chaining her to a bed then raping her continuously for nine months. Anyone who supports that is utterly vile. Damn Poe and his law! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/113 "2018-05-22T11:44:21Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > I assume most Catholics don’t do \*everything \*the Pope says, my parents thought he was wrong about contraception for one. I think it’s more likely that, in Catholic families I know, abortion would be strongly discouraged and all possible help given to allow the mother to cope & be happy with their future child or at worst arrange for adoption…Evangelicals aren’t like this? I’ve never met one. And that’s assuming the baby is an unexpected but healthy accident. I’ve only known one person who claimed that abortion is always, always, always wrong (the other extreme pro-lifers I know are on the side of “if the baby is viable, let it be born and give it into adoption; if it’s not viable, it’s not an abortion; if it’s viable and carrying the pregnancy to term would put the mother’s life at high risk, she should be able to choose”; all but this one guy), but it was a male who refused to believe me when I explained extrauterine pregnancies. I hit him with every link to medical sites I could find. Part of the issue with laws banning all abortions is that they always fail to take into account those cases where the pregnancy wouldn’t lead to a viable baby; that tells me the people behind those laws don’t really care about the baby, but about controlling what a woman can and cannot do. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/114 "2018-05-22T12:05:53Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > …Part of the issue with laws banning all abortions is that they always fail to take into account those cases where the pregnancy wouldn’t lead to a viable baby; that tells me the people behind those laws don’t really care about the baby, but about controlling what a woman can and cannot do. Is anyone really proposing that though? I thought the standard exceptions were health of mother & rape (don’t get that one, baby didn’t rape anyone) Converse is true too, banning no abortions at all could lead to forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/115 "2018-05-22T12:13:01Z")
Ireland isn’t proposing it: it’s trying to repeal the law which contains exactly that ban. No exceptions at all. Vote is on Friday if I’m not mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/116 "2018-05-22T12:18:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The primary reason for opposition to abortion is the desire to oppress, torture and kill women. The so-called “pro life” side has about as much concern for life as the same number of serial killers would. They are some of the most monstrous people alive. So the millions of women who are pro-life, want to oppress, torture and kill women? ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/117 "2018-05-22T12:28:23Z")
This place has turned into a joke (parody) of left wing nonsense. Whoever can say the most extreme thing takes the prize. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/118 "2018-05-22T12:30:17Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ireland isn’t proposing it: it’s trying to repeal the law which contains exactly that ban. No exceptions at all. Vote is on Friday if I’m not mistaken. Wasn’t aware of that, sounds like a stupid law…must be why all those damn Irish keep coming over here and taking all our abortions. English abortions for English babies! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/119 "2018-05-22T12:30:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So the millions of women who are pro-life, want to oppress, torture and kill women? Shrug, DT is exaggerating and may or may not be referring exclusively to the extremists, but the idea that no women have ever wanted to oppress, torture and kill other women is demonstrably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/120 "2018-05-22T13:00:47Z")
**Nava,** is Europe aware that many, maybe even most of us, detest what trump stands for? Are Americans seen as Kool-Aid drinking, mindless bots in step with this man? I just hope the world doesn’t believe we back a liar such as the president. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401.md?page=7)