# Abortion: The One True Hill to die on **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401 "2018-05-18T15:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/121 "2018-05-22T13:08:04Z")
I can’t really speak for Europe, but the reasonable Europeans with whom he’s come up in conversation are aware that, same as we don’t necessarily get the rulers we voted for, or the candidates we’d like to get, neither do you. We didn’t believe that you all loved Obama (sometimes he seemed more popular over here than over there), we don’t believe you all love Trump. The whole “electoral college” thing is seen as pretty alien, but in the end it’s just one of the many versions of “winner takes all”. Other stuff which is peculiarly American (such as gerrymandering) is never or pretty much never mentioned outside of colleges offering Degrees in Political Science. There’s people who grab a brush wider than the Pacific Ocean and use it to paint the whole country, but the same people do the same to any group they can label. Once I detect them I do my best to avoid conversations on anything more serious than the appropriate color for breakfast toast. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/122 "2018-05-22T13:16:22Z")
If you want to believe it’s murder, fine. But be consistent about it. If it’s murder, then its murder if there was rape or incest, or a danger to the health of the mother. If you can’t get on board with with, then shut up about it being murder. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/123 "2018-05-22T13:28:13Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > If you want to believe it’s murder, fine. But be consistent about it. If it’s murder, then its murder if there was rape or incest, or a danger to the health of the mother. If you can’t get on board with with, then shut up about it being murder. I’d say health of the mother is separate to the other two, it’d be more like killing in self defense than murder. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/124 "2018-05-22T13:54:33Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > I thought the standard exceptions were health of mother & rape (don’t get that one, baby didn’t rape anyone) I think that’s one to challenge the pro-lifers about. Most of them want to make an exception in the cases of incest and rape, but why? If it’s really about murdering a baby, what difference does that make? Use that to point out that it’s really about punishment, because the exceptions are specifically the cases where it wasn’t the woman’s “fault.” ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/125 "2018-05-22T14:05:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Catholicism is a different ballgame, really. They didn’t believe in abortion before it became a political issue. I think they’re as wrong on this issue as any other religious fundamentalist however I will give them props for consistency, they’re also against the death penalty and euthanasia. I know plenty of evangelical anti-abortionists who are delighted by the death penalty, life seems to have a very peculiar set of valuation for them. Fetus\<—White Protestant Man\<— White Protestant Woman\<— White Catholics\<— POC Protestants\<— Jews\<— Heathens (non-judeo christian religions)\<— Muslims\<— Atheists\<— Criminals\<— Liberals\<— Hillary Clinton seems to be the general order of who should be safeguarded above all else vs. who should literally die in a fire. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/126 "2018-05-22T14:13:02Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So the millions of women who are pro-life, want to oppress, torture and kill women? Absolutely, as long as they are not the oppressed, tortured, and killed. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/127 "2018-05-22T14:55:22Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Absolutely, as long as they are not the oppressed, tortured, and killed. I’ll believe you if only because of a post like this… > [@Lady Dopers- What does the state have to put on the table for you to make more babies?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lady-dopers-what-does-the-state-have-to-put-on-the-table-for-you-to-make-more-babies/781011/32): > > The right to capture, heinously torture, and eventually kill a certain number of men is the only thing that could ever induce me to have a child. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/128 "2018-05-22T15:03:13Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > If you want to believe it’s murder, fine. But be consistent about it. If it’s murder, then its murder if there was rape or incest, or a danger to the health of the mother. If you can’t get on board with with, then shut up about it being murder. Exactly. If you’re willing to make a choice about which cases make abortion acceptable, then you’re simply claiming that your choice is better or more valid than that of the woman herself. If not paternal, that’s at least parental. But you’re still acting in a pro-choice way. In fairness, there are those who recognize the politics of the matter, and that they can only impose more restrictions on choice by making some compromises, such as allowing it for rape and incest. As long as they can get a \*net \*savings in “murders”, they can consider it a victory. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/129 "2018-05-23T00:00:30Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’ve been harping on how anti-abortion men are, and wondering about the reasons for that, but now I’m thinking about anti-abortion women; what makes women anti-abortion? Is it all about “saving the bayyyy-beeees” for them? Are they jealous of women who haven’t been roped into strait-laced lives by being brainwashed about religion since birth, and they want these harlots to suffer? Is it the same deal as the men, they want to control people who are vulnerable to being controlled? I’m related to a woman who, during her third pregnancy, would intentionally drive by a Planned Parenthood in the afternoon so she could get on Facebook and post weepy screeds about having to drive past a place where children are butchered. :rolleyes: Seriously. When not pregnant, she brags about being so blessed to serve in the only roles The Lord intended for a woman (wife and mother). Until her younger sisters had to go to work in a semi-failed attempt at running a family business, she also posted harsh remarks about young women who seek jobs instead of husbands. This world view is compounded by a Christian homeschooled education – the planet is only 6,000 years old, etc. – so I think she truly believes that each human being is individually created by some omnipotent being, who then proceeds to plan out each second of that human’s life. I also think she truly has no concept of what the development of a human fetus actually looks like; she might actually think that the product of an abortion at, say, 8 weeks looks like a teeny, tiny fully-formed baby. I’ve never asked her about that. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/130 "2018-05-23T01:36:36Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > What the pro-lifers either don’t understand or don’t want to broadcast is that their actions won’t stop abortions – they will only curtail safe abortions. Maybe that’s enough for them. Perhaps they would understand if we couched it in rhetoric that they are used to seeing. “If we criminalize abortion than only criminals will perform abortions.” Probably not, but its worth a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/131 "2018-05-23T14:31:43Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > Is anyone really proposing that though? I thought the standard exceptions were health of mother & rape (don’t get that one, baby didn’t rape anyone) > > Converse is true too, banning no abortions at all could lead to forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies. Canada had legislation criminalizing all abortions. This was amended in 1969 to allow medically necessary abortions, until 1988, when the legislation was ruled to be unconstitutional. Despite a couple of half-hearted attempts to replace it with something that might pass constitutional muster, Canada has been without any abortion legislation for 30 years. There has been no cases of “forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies”, and abortion rates have been steadily declining for the past 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/132 "2018-05-23T14:34:07Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Canada had legislation criminalizing all abortions. This was amended in 1969 to allow medically necessary abortions, until 1988, when the legislation was ruled to be unconstitutional. Despite a couple of half-hearted attempts to replace it with something that might pass constitutional muster, Canada has been without any abortion legislation for 30 years. > > There has been no cases of “forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies”, and abortion rates have been steadily declining for the past 20 years. Pfft. Next you’ll suggesting that “slippery slope” is just a rhetorical construct and not an inevitability. . ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/133 "2018-05-23T14:59:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Pfft. Next you’ll suggesting that “slippery slope” is just a rhetorical construct and not an inevitability. > . Hey, if the slippery slope argument isn’t allowed, the extremists won’t have any toys at all to play with. Extremists being people for whom there are only extremes. Either there are zero abortions allowed, or every person, man and woman, is forced into abortions. Either people are free to be Christians in this nation and force their religion on everyone, or Christians will be hunted down and killed for their beliefs. You know, standard right wing arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/134 "2018-05-23T15:34:14Z")
You’ll take my excluded middle from my cold, dead hands. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/135 "2018-05-23T15:35:27Z")
> [@Bookkeeper](#): > > Canada had legislation criminalizing all abortions. This was amended in 1969 to allow medically necessary abortions, until 1988, when the legislation was ruled to be unconstitutional. Despite a couple of half-hearted attempts to replace it with something that might pass constitutional muster, Canada has been without any abortion legislation for 30 years. > > There has been no cases of “forcing doctors to kill fully formed, viable babies”, and abortion rates have been steadily declining for the past 20 years. And our last “right wing” Prime Minister said, repeatedly and unequivocally, that the abortion debate was decided and closed - he wasn’t re-opening it (and he didn’t). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/136 "2018-05-26T09:33:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So the millions of women who are pro-life, want to oppress, torture and kill women? Yes? Gender solidarity is imaginary; men have killed millions of other men, women are no better inclined to other women. And it’s not like they’d feel any obligation to getting an abortion for _themselves._ > [@CurtC](#): > > I think that’s one to challenge the pro-lifers about. Most of them want to make an exception in the cases of incest and rape, but why? In order to make their agenda sound more palatable so they can get it into law, then go after the victims of rape and incest _anyway._ And go after women who have miscarriages as well, and those who need an abortion or they’ll die. ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/137 "2018-05-26T10:45:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes? Gender solidarity is imaginary; men have killed millions of other men, women are no better inclined to other women. And it’s not like they’d feel any obligation to getting an abortion for _themselves._ > > In order to make their agenda sound more palatable so they can get it into law, then go after the victims of rape and incest _anyway._ And go after women who have miscarriages as well, and those who need an abortion or they’ll die. Der Trish? I love you. I am a married man------I’ve been attached for 22 years. You will always be “red shirt” to me. You helped me understand atheism. I’m not happy about it. But there is no evidence supporting a “loving god”. Most of all, I remember you arguing with Shodan. You know Shodan can’t understand why you would wish death on his son. He doesn’t even understand that you don’t wish death on his son. I do understand that you wish death on his child to the extent that his child delivers death to others. But I raise a glass to you. To all of you deep and troubled thinkers. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/138 "2018-05-26T14:49:13Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Ok, I get that Conservatives believe it to be murder, Really? You’re using a very broad brush there, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/139 "2018-05-26T15:07:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? You’re using a very broad brush there, aren’t you? How is that a broad brush? Conservatives tend to be the strongest supporters of anti-abortion laws and in doing so call it murder. Hell, I have a former co-worker/acquaintance who just put a thing on his facebook page yesterday that claimed that totalitarians could learn a thing or two about covering up atrocities from Planned Parenthood. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/140 "2018-05-26T15:52:00Z")
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