# Abortion: The One True Hill to die on **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 18, 2018, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401 "2018-05-18T15:04:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/141 "2018-05-26T15:57:31Z")
Sure, that’s true, but they overwhelmingly think abortion should be illegal in ALL circumstances. > **[About six-in-ten Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/13/about-six-in-ten-americans-say-abortion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases-2/)** > > A majority of U.S. adults say abortion should be legal in all or most cases; 37% think abortion should be illegal in all or most cases. 65% of Republicans and 71% of Conservatives believe abortion should be illegal under all circumstances. So, baby with no brain? No abortion. Will kill the mother? No abortion. That article doesn’t ask any ‘middle ground’ questions. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/142 "2018-05-26T21:08:35Z")
ALL circumstances? Your cite doesn’t say that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/143 "2018-05-26T21:30:41Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > 65% of Republicans and 71% of Conservatives believe abortion should be illegal under all circumstances. So, baby with no brain? No abortion. Will kill the mother? No abortion. > [@Shodan](#): > > ALL circumstances? Your cite doesn’t say that. > > Regards, > Shodan If you look at the 2nd poll in [this link](http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm), it says 37% of Republicans think abortion should not be allowed. It doesn’t explicitly say “in all circumstances”, but I think that’s a safe assumption. That puts the number at about half of those who responded to the poll in Chimera’s link (which asked about “all/most” circumstances), but a clear majority (61%) of Republicans in that poll think abortion should be available in at least some circumstances. However, best to ask “should abortion be allowed if the mother’s life is in danger”, because that’s not what a lot of people are going to think about when they are asked about abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/144 "2018-05-26T21:31:44Z")
Yup, mistake on my part. Should read ‘all/most cases’. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/145 "2018-05-27T04:01:21Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > I’m related to a woman who, during her third pregnancy, would intentionally drive by a Planned Parenthood in the afternoon so she could get on Facebook and post weepy screeds about having to drive past a place where children are butchered. :rolleyes: Seriously. When not pregnant, she brags about being so blessed to serve in the only roles The Lord intended for a woman (wife and mother). Until her younger sisters had to go to work in a semi-failed attempt at running a family business, she also posted harsh remarks about young women who seek jobs instead of husbands. This world view is compounded by a Christian homeschooled education – the planet is only 6,000 years old, etc. – so I think she truly believes that each human being is individually created by some omnipotent being, who then proceeds to plan out each second of that human’s life. I also think she truly has no concept of what the development of a human fetus actually looks like; she might actually think that the product of an abortion at, say, 8 weeks looks like a teeny, tiny fully-formed baby. I’ve never asked her about that. You’re related to my older niece? And you and I have never met? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/146 "2018-05-27T20:05:07Z")
Jumping back to where this thread started… The fundamentalist Christians who fiercely oppose abortion do not have any biblical basis for that opinion. Not only is the punishment for striking a woman so the loses the baby much less than the punishment for murder, there’s actually a segment in the Bible that appears to require a ritual abortion in the case of a woman cheating on her husband. Read Numbers 5:11-5:31 and decide for yourself. I rather suspect that this describes a real practice, and that the “dust” was contaminated with enough heavy metal to cause a miscarriage, and that the priest probably chose where to gather the dust and how much to add - in effect acting as judge in the case. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/147 "2018-05-27T20:16:44Z")
They like to claim it is covered under ‘thou shalt not kill’, but ignore that Jewish Law doesn’t consider early abortion to be murder. This is where you have to go with it. Was it legal under Roman and Jewish Law at the time of Christ and the Apostles? YES. Was it considered murder? NO. Ok, so why didn’t Jesus or any of the Apostles single out the practice, which was legal at the time, if they indeed considered abortion to be murder? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/149 "2018-05-27T20:32:11Z")
That’s the case everywhere - the argument is whether abortions will be safe and legal or unsafe and illegal, not whether they will occur. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/150 "2018-05-27T21:10:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > They like to claim it is covered under ‘thou shalt not kill’, but ignore that Jewish Law doesn’t consider early abortion to be murder. This is where you have to go with it. Was it legal under Roman and Jewish Law at the time of Christ and the Apostles? YES. Was it considered murder? NO. Ok, so why didn’t Jesus or any of the Apostles single out the practice, which was legal at the time, if they indeed considered abortion to be murder? Jewish law doesn’t consider the newborn to be fully human until it takes its first breath. God ensouled Adam and Eve by breathing into them. The Hebrew word for “soul” is the same as the word for “breath”. So a fetus isn’t a human being and can’t be murdered. That’s not to say it isn’t something that is nearly a human, and as such, extremely important and valuable and worthy of protection. And it is a violation of Jewish law to kill a fetus (with some exceptions, such as if it is endangering the woman.) But it’s not murder. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/151 "2018-05-28T00:27:39Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Jewish law doesn’t consider the newborn to be fully human until it takes its first breath. God ensouled Adam and Eve by breathing into them. The Hebrew word for “soul” is the same as the word for “breath”. So a fetus isn’t a human being and can’t be murdered. That’s not to say it isn’t something that is nearly a human, and as such, extremely important and valuable and worthy of protection. And it is a violation of Jewish law to kill a fetus (with some exceptions, such as if it is endangering the woman.) But it’s not murder. If you just do a quick Google search on the apologists explaining this particular set of verses, they will of course claim that it doesn’t really mean an abortion and it’s just something else instead. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/152 "2018-05-28T00:30:42Z")
Google ‘Jewish Law Abortion’. You’ll get some pages that talk about how it has been considered over the years. By Jewish people, not by people who are trying to fit it into Christianity or any ideology of their own. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/153 "2018-05-28T06:24:11Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > If you just do a quick Google search on the apologists explaining this particular set of verses, they will of course claim that it doesn’t really mean an abortion and it’s just something else instead. Yes, you can find any interpretation you want. I suggest each poster consider what the text says, however, that being the fundamentalist Christian way. And also consider the passage in Exodus 21 on the penalty for causing a miscarriage. The Catholic Church follows the Pope. Evangelical Christians theoretically read the Bible for inspiration. It’s quite odd that as a movement, they’ve elevated abortion to be such a central issue, because the biblical support for that view is very weak. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/154 "2018-05-28T08:14:31Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > I assume most Catholics don’t do \*everything \*the Pope says, my parents thought he was wrong about contraception for one. I think it’s more likely that, in Catholic families I know, abortion would be strongly discouraged and all possible help given to allow the mother to cope & be happy with their future child or at worst arrange for adoption…Evangelicals aren’t like this? I’ve never met one. Help given to the mother? While she’s pregnant, sure. Afterwards, not so much. And while adoption is considered an option, I’ve never heard of anyone helping arrange it, and you sure won’t be able to take up an offering for it or anything. And there’s still a sort of gossipy shame involved, since she was still pregnant, and gave up her kid. At least, from what I observed. I can’t speak for all. But what I can say is that Catholics deal with the issue differently politically. US Catholics often don’t agree about abortion, or are okay with being pro-choice. And even those who aren’t do not tend to make it their only issue, as in the title of the thread. So I think it’s important to separate the two when discussing the underlying issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/155 "2018-05-28T14:45:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And also consider the passage in Exodus 21 on the penalty for causing a miscarriage. I covered that in the OP. Ancient Semitic law, passed down from the Akkadians and Babylon, was that if you cause a woman to miscarriage, you owed her 10 shekels, the fine mentioned in Ezekiel. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/156 "2018-05-28T18:57:19Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > And if something \*is \*viewed as murder, then, how could you NOT vote on that issue almost overwhelmingly to the overriding of every other issue? Murder isn’t a federal crime (or shouldn’t be) and, as bad as murder is, individual murder cases are not a priority for a basic functioning government. Some people maintain principles as well as standards on the proper role and scope of the state at various levels. Without those constraints, we might as well just support summary executions of accused murders in the street, like they do with drug suspects in the Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/157 "2018-05-28T21:17:54Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > You’re related to my older niece? And you and I have never met? Well hello there, distant relative! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Clarisse\_McClellan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Clarisse\_McClellan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clarisse_McClellan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/158 "2018-05-29T20:57:16Z")
Red-state living agnostic here. The verse of the bible I am given most often from pro-life no abortion ever individuals supporting their beliefs is Jeremiah 1:4-5. "4 "The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; " Granted this is god speaking to Jeremiah but this also, to pro-lifers, is proof that god knows everyone even before they are formed in the womb and has a plan for everyone even before they are born and to have an abortion is to usurp god’s power. Or so I’m told. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/159 "2018-05-29T21:30:27Z")
> [@Clarisse\_McClellan](#): > > \ > Granted this is god speaking to Jeremiah but this also, to pro-lifers, is proof that god knows everyone even before they are formed in the womb and has a plan for everyone even before they are born and to have an abortion is to usurp god’s power. Or so I’m told. By their logic, women who have an abortion are more powerful than God. I’m not sure they’ve thought this through. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/160 "2018-05-29T22:04:48Z")
> [@Clarisse\_McClellan](#): > > Red-state living agnostic here. The verse of the bible I am given most often from pro-life no abortion ever individuals supporting their beliefs is Jeremiah 1:4-5. > > "4 "The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; " > > Granted this is god speaking to Jeremiah but this also, to pro-lifers, is proof that god knows everyone even before they are formed in the womb and has a plan for everyone even before they are born and to have an abortion is to usurp god’s power. Or so I’m told. Yup, conveniently ignoring that ancient hebrew law was based off ancient Semitic law and abortion was legal. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401/161 "2018-06-08T17:55:23Z")
> [@Jake\_Bullet\_Traffic\_Control](#): > > This. I don’t know why pro-lifers believe what they say they believe, but they can’t _truly_ believe abortion is murder. If they did, they’d be killing abortionists en masse. Since they aren’t, their reasons must be different. > [@Jacquernagy](#): > > This is the best summary of the issue that I’ve seen, and it’s a concept that I often bring up myself, though nobody ever seems to listen to me. These people need to either back up their rhetoric with the proper action to take when people who you supposedly care about are being murdered - which they won’t, except for the, what, .001% of anti-abortion people who actually carry out attacks - or admit that the truth is, there are ‘tiers’ of human life priority, with unborn humans occupying a place beneath born humans, which they also won’t. I do think, though, that it is logical for someone to truly believe that abortion is murder and yet be afraid enough of the consequences of blowing up an abortion clinic to not blow up an abortion clinic. > [@Chimera](#): > > Yup, conveniently ignoring that ancient hebrew law was based off ancient Semitic law and **abortion was legal.** Was it, though? I’m not so much demanding a cite as I have never heard of a particular “legal ruling” on the issue in ancient Hebrew civilization and also whether technology even permitted abortions to be carried out (unless there were some medicine known to induce miscarriages on purpose.) (I find the priest-purposefully-determining-level-of-lead-dust theory mentioned above doubtful) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-the-one-true-hill-to-die-on/814401.md?page=9)