# Abortion: Why don't pro-choicers just say, "It kills a person, but it's a unique circumstance?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228 "2020-01-30T16:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/21 "2020-01-30T19:27:34Z")
At what time is a fetus a “person”? That’s the relevant question. I mean, everytime I wank off i kill 280 million potential lives. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/22 "2020-01-30T19:33:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > At what time is a fetus a “person”? > > That’s the relevant question. It is? Why? What’s the difference between these scenarios: A. Personhood attaches at conception B. Personhood attaches at birth If the difference is “we don’t legally kill persons”, then I have to point out that, yes, we _do_ and have been doing so for quite a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/23 "2020-01-30T19:44:22Z")
Do you realize that what you’re asking is basically ‘why don’t pro-choice people make an argument that would justify prosecuting abortion and/or miscarriage as homicide by anti-choice people’? Are you aware that anti-choice lawmakers have already passed laws defining a fetus as a person and attempted to prosecute women under such laws? (And yes, in at least one case the prosecution was for a miscarriage, not an abortion). I don’t get how someone who is aware of what ‘fetal personhood’ laws are and how they are used could ask this question, it’s pretty obvious that allowing miscarriage to be prosecuted as manslaughter is not a result that pro-choice people want. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/24 "2020-01-30T19:45:42Z")
The problem with relying purely on the [unconscious violinist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion#The_violinist) argument is that it automatically cedes the moral high ground. While a person isn’t obligated to tie themselves to the circulatory system of the violinist to save his life, doing so would be an altruistic act, and so therefor more moral than letting him die. Thus those who give birth are more moral than those who don’t. So if you do have an abortion you are necessarily a bad person. I personally think the best way to view a pregnancy is as an opportunity. With it comes great joy but also great responsibility and possible hardship, in some ways analogous to a job opportunity. If you have been applying for a really great job, and think that you are going to get it, but it falls through at the last minute you could be heart broken. One could get a sudden offer that that they weren’t expecting and decide to take it, or decide that the time is not right just now. One could also make the choice not to take it, but still feel have mixed feelings about whether they should have taken it or not, and maybe later regret that they did not take it. In any case its the choice of the individual. So sure it not just like any other piece of tissue, but its not a person, at least not yet. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/25 "2020-01-30T19:56:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > _Per the new GD rules, I’m hoping this can be a thread for a narrow focus on just one aspect of the abortion debate, without morphing into the same old abortion debate we’ve had for decades - hope the mods can clamp down on any hijacking:_ > > For decades, there has been this ongoing war of words over whether a fetus is a person or not, with some saying it is, and some saying “a fetus is just a piece of human tissue,” and some holding other views. But surprisingly rarely do you hear the pro-choice side ever just say, **“Yes, abortion kills a person, but it’s a unique circumstance not fully analogous to anything else.”** Because it’s not a unique set of circumstances We have laws already that allow the killing of a person if that person is attaching itself to another person’s body and drinking their blood. Apply the existing laws to fetuses and every abortion become protected as a form of self-defense. Hell, in Texas you can kill someone for breaking into your house or vehicle. Certainly, your body should be entitled to a similar level of defense. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/26 "2020-01-30T20:00:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think both sides of the abortion debate are slowly coming to a consensus on what a fetus is - the pro-life side because they’ve always held that a fetus is a person, and the pro-choice side because it is - first of all, irrelevant to them, as you point out - and secondly, because the notion that a fetus is just a clump of tissue like an appendix has always been absurd. An appendix has no potential to grow up to go to school, college, work a job, have a family, vote, use Facebook, drive a car, etc. You’re doing exactly what I talked about in my previous post. You’re assuming that your beliefs are universal and that the people who are arguing with you know they’re wrong and are just not admitting it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/27 "2020-01-30T20:10:05Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > While a person isn’t obligated to tie themselves to the circulatory system of the violinist to save his life, doing so would be an altruistic act, and so therefor more moral than letting him die. Thus those who give birth are more moral than those who don’t. So if you do have an abortion you are necessarily a bad person. I question the premises of this argument. Let’s say you have a belief system that posits an afterlife. The possibilities are you can go to a good place or a bad place after you die and spend eternity there. Your actions during your lifetime will determine which one you go to. And you believe that a human life begins at conception. In such a scenario, wouldn’t it be moral to kill a person before they are born? A human before birth has had no opportunity to do anything wrong; they’re guaranteed to go to the good place. But if you allow that person to be born, you are creating the risk that they will do something wrong and go to the bad place when they eventually die. You should act morally and protect your fellow human beings by killing them before they can screw up. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/28 "2020-01-30T20:12:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re doing exactly what I talked about in my previous post. You’re assuming that your beliefs are universal and that the people who are arguing with you know they’re wrong and are just not admitting it. Heck, if a _person_ (an unambiguous fully-formed adult walking talking _person_) told me they were going to go to school, college, work a job, have a family, vote, use Facebook, drive a car, etc. but first they wanted to continually punch me in the stomach for nine months, I think I would prefer having to option to decline. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/29 "2020-01-30T20:13:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why is the onus on pro-choice to make the argument palatable to pro-lifers? … No further justification needed or owed. Because both sides are warring for the votes of people in the middle. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/30 "2020-01-30T20:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Why don’t pro-choicers just say, “It kills a person, but it’s a unique circumstance?” Some pro-choice people do make that argument. I’ve seen it made quite frequently. Others don’t make that argument because they don’t think a blastula is a person, and/or don’t think an embryo is a person, and/or don’t think a fetus is a person. As all stages were rolled in together in the OP’s question, I’ll point out that anyone who thinks a single fertilized cell isn’t a person wouldn’t make that argument because they don’t think it’s true. There are some who don’t make that argument because “person” has a legal meaning, and they don’t see a fertilized egg, or a blastula, or maybe an embryo, or maybe a fetus as properly coming under that legal meaning. And there are probably some who don’t make that argument because they expect the next thing the anti-choice person would say would be ‘then of course abortion is murder!’ And that last group has some justification for that. As I said, I’ve seen the suggested argument made, a number of times. But I have not ever seen it “essentially shut up most pro-life arguments in one fell swoop”. It might do so for some anti-choice people, I suppose. But it doesn’t seem to do so for many others. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/31 "2020-01-30T20:28:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because both sides are warring for the votes of people in the middle. And the way for pro-choice people to win this battle is to cede 90% of the argument to the anti-choice crowd? That’s absurd. A man whose brain has turned to mush is no longer a person. I think that a fetus without a working brain (at least) is not a person. But I’m a man and it really doesn’t matter what I think. The only person (and she is a person) who counts is the woman with the fetus inside of her. When do you think personhood begins? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/32 "2020-01-30T20:31:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I argue this: It’s okay to kill a person who is using your body without your permission and that a woman has more rights than a fetus. Then the pro-life side argues that any woman who has sex is giving permission to any fetus that reults from sex. When I ask them who has more rights the woman or the fetus, it’s always “the baby.” And if she’s pregnant by rape, then the baby shouldn’t die cause it didn’t do anything wrong. > > I do wish the pro-life crowd would call itself anti-abortion and stop calling the pro-choice crowd pro-aborion. How come men who go around impregnating women aren’t consenting, then, to child support, medical bills, school bills, and so on? Plus half of whatever it costs for the woman to recover from the pregnancy. That fetus is created by leaching from the woman’s bone, blood, muscle, sinew, and life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/33 "2020-01-30T20:33:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > For the record, I’m pro-life and I’m not suggesting that the pro-choice side actually endorse such an argument as presented above. But it surprises me that few pro-choicers have or do use this argument. Because it would essentially put an end to much of the current ongoing debate. How exactly does the use of the personhood label accomplish this (or anything, really)? If a pro-choicer shrugs and says “Okay, a fetus is a person,” then what is the pro-lifer’s next step? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/34 "2020-01-30T20:36:27Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And the way for pro-choice people to win this battle is to cede 90% of the argument to the anti-choice crowd? That’s absurd. > > A man whose brain has turned to mush is no longer a person. I think that a fetus without a working brain (at least) is not a person. But I’m a man and it really doesn’t matter what I think. The only person (and she is a person) who counts is the woman with the fetus inside of her. > > When do you think personhood begins? Well, back before women had rights, it was after “quickening”. That was when the woman could feel the fetus moving. Up till then, it wasn’t abortion, it was considered bringing back the regularity of “the courses”. These services----and the often-dangerous “medicines” that were used----were advertised even in _Catholic_ newspapers. Legalized abortion was not a break with the past. It was just putting it on the books and making it official----plus ensuring that women no longer risked death to refuse to be broodmares. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/35 "2020-01-30T20:42:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > How exactly does the use of the personhood label accomplish this (or anything, really)? If a pro-choicer shrugs and says “Okay, a fetus is a person,” then what is the pro-lifer’s next step? Then the pro-lifer doesn’t have much left to say. If a pro-choicer says, “Fetus personhood or not, if a woman wants to abort, she should have the right to abort,” what rebuttal do you give to that? The pro-choicer has just acknowledged the full length and depth of the pro-lifer’s argument and \*\*\*still \*\*\*dismissed it. Which is what several Dopers in-thread have also alluded to - the whole debate over whether a fetus is a person, or at which point it becomes a person, is irrelevant in the eyes of many pro-choicers. And which has left me curious why you don’t see more pro-choice politicians simply saying, “Fetus personhood is irrelevant” in the public square. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/36 "2020-01-30T20:42:11Z")
For that matter, Velocity: you’ve obviously heard the argument. But you say you’re “pro-life” – so it hasn’t changed your mind. Why do you think it would change the minds of everybody, or nearly everybody, else who’s opposed to the right to end a pregnancy? And if you don’t think it would change minds, why do you think it would end the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/37 "2020-01-30T20:52:15Z")
Perhaps the OP thinks that’s a convincing argument. I really don’t think a vast majority of pro-lifers are going to be satisfied with that answer. I mean, if the point is to shut someone up, maybe that would do it for some people? If the point is to actually change minds, no I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/38 "2020-01-30T20:52:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > For that matter, Velocity: you’ve obviously heard the argument. But you say you’re “pro-life” – so it hasn’t changed your mind. Why do you think it would change the minds of everybody, or nearly everybody, else who’s opposed to the right to end a pregnancy? And if you don’t think it would change minds, why do you think it would end the debate? It wouldn’t necessarily change minds - abortion is one of the most intractable and dug-in issues that there is - but it would shift the debate towards more favorable turf for the pro-choice side. Because right now, the pro-choice side has been playing this tortured definition-logic game of whether a fetus is a person or not, or when it becomes one (is it at 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 6 weeks?) etc. By saying, “Fetus personhood doesn’t _ **matter** _, abortion should be legal no matter what,” the pro-choice side would suddenly have itself a much simpler and clearer stance, and the pro-life side would suddenly have to scramble for a new defense/approach, because much of what the pro-life side has been based on - the argument that a fetus is a person - would suddenly no longer matter in the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/39 "2020-01-30T20:53:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Which is what several Dopers in-thread have also alluded to - the whole debate over whether a fetus is a person, or at which point it becomes a person, is irrelevant in the eyes of many pro-choicers. And which has left me curious why you don’t see more pro-choice politicians simply saying, “Fetus personhood is irrelevant” in the public square. > **[Alabama woman indicted for manslaughter after miscarrying when shot](https://nypost.com/2019/06/26/alabama-woman-indicted-for-manslaughter-after-miscarrying-when-shot/)** > > “Let’s not lose sight that the unborn baby is the victim here,’’ said Pleasant Grove Police Lt. Danny Reid. > **[This Woman Had A Stillbirth And Is On Trial For It — Again](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/karlazabludovsky/evelyn-hernandez-el-salvador-rape-stillborn-trial)** > > Evelyn Hernández was convicted of aggravated murder after a stillbirth, but was released after serving 33 months. This week, she is going back to court for the same alleged crime. > **[Criminalizing Miscarriage: Purvi Patel Case Reveals Growing Pattern of...](https://now.org/resource/criminalizing-miscarriage-purvi-patel-case-reveals-growing-pattern-of-prosecutions/)** > > Miscarried, but Found Guilty of Crimes: Purvi Patel, a 33-year-old Indian immigrant in South Bend, Ind., is serving a 30-year sentence for neglect of a child and a six-year sentence for felony feticide, concurrently. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/40 "2020-01-30T21:15:07Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Then the pro-lifer doesn’t have much left to say. If a pro-choicer says, “Fetus personhood or not, if a woman wants to abort, she should have the right to abort,” what rebuttal do you give to that? The pro-choicer has just acknowledged the full length and depth of the pro-lifer’s argument and \*\*\*still \*\*\*dismissed it. What rebuttal? Seriously? The pro-lifer’s rebuttal is to accuse the pro-choicer of wanting to kill people and pointing to the pro-choicer’s own words as evidence. > [@](#): > > Which is what several Dopers in-thread have also alluded to - the whole debate over whether a fetus is a person, or at which point it becomes a person, is irrelevant in the eyes of many pro-choicers. And which has left me curious why you don’t see more pro-choice politicians simply saying, “Fetus personhood is irrelevant” in the public square. Because accusations of baby-killing will follow. Why invite it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=3)