# Abortion: Why don't pro-choicers just say, "It kills a person, but it's a unique circumstance?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228 "2020-01-30T16:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/41 "2020-01-30T21:29:15Z")
It would be problematic on several levels for Pro-Choice. Part of the pro-choice thing is **choice**. Or how it used to be phrased the abortion is a issue that is between the woman and her god or doctor, depending on the telling, and no one else’s business. It is undetermined when human life starts as we don’t even know what human life means, therefor as part of the choice it is a choice to believe it is just a clump of cells, and not a person. It is also a choice to believe the fetus is a person. Or the mother can have other beliefs. The mother then can chose accordingly accordingly to her beliefs and wishes under her circumstances. Further Pro-Choice is the guardian for millions of women that they did not morally commit murder, a reversal of their stance admitting abortion is killing could serve to stigmatize many women, perhaps also unnecessarily as a fetus still might not be a human life. As such I believe their rank and file would not accept such a premise and threaten to split Pro Choice. Into ‘It’s just a clump of cells’ and ‘it’s OK to kill my baby’ groupings. Pro Life would have a absolute field day with that. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/42 "2020-01-30T21:31:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because both sides are warring for the votes of people in the middle. The best argument for the undecided is to say: One side gives you a choice and respects your human rights to make decisions right for you, the other side does not. Vote accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/43 "2020-01-30T21:39:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > At what time is a fetus a “person”? > > That’s the relevant question. > > I mean, everytime I wank off i kill 280 million potential lives. Well, not quite … one wank = 1 possible pregnancy if you concede that you would have screwed one woman, the only way it would possibly be more if it was into a cup for invitro fertilization where one shot could possibly go for several eggs. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Why is the onus on pro-choice to make the argument palatable to pro-lifers? Since no pro-choicer (AFAIK) would dictate to a pro-lifer what they should do with their body and reproductive decisions, what’s wrong with simply telling them to fuck off and mind their own goddamn business? No further justification needed or owed. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/44 "2020-01-30T21:51:15Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > My favorite pro-life saying is “Everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.” Yes, and Hitler was a Christian who was NOT pro-choice. Indeed, the anti-abortion crowd shares a lot of Hitler’s beliefs. Not to get off-topic, but Hitler was hardly a Christian, he was involved in the occult. And he was not anti-abortion, only against aborting Aryans. Wasn’t it uncovered that Margaret Sanger wanted abortion because it would get rid of black babies? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/45 "2020-01-30T21:58:41Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Well, not quite … one wank = 1 possible pregnancy if you concede that you would have screwed one woman, the only way it would possibly be more if it was into a cup for invitro fertilization where one shot could possibly go for several eggs. Have you not heard of twins? Anyway, I suspect the point was that declaring a fertilized egg to be a human makes about as much sense as declaring an individual sperm to be a human. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/46 "2020-01-30T22:01:03Z")
Well, I don’t make that argument because I don’t believe it. I think the early fetus isn’t a person, and that once it becomes a person, the mother should have a reason stronger than “I don’t want to be pregnant” to kill it. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Because it’s not a unique set of circumstances We have laws already that allow the killing of a person if that person is attaching itself to another person’s body and drinking their blood. Apply the existing laws to fetuses and every abortion become protected as a form of self-defense. Hell, in Texas you can kill someone for breaking into your house or vehicle. Certainly, your body should be entitled to a similar level of defense. Yeah, I disagree with “castle doctrines” in general. I don’t think you should be able to kill another person unless you are in real danger. So, for instance, if the pregnancy imperils the mother in some way, of course she should be able to end it. But if you are 8 months pregnant and healthy, I don’t think you should be able to kill the fetus. And if someone breaks into your house and is sitting quietly in your living room eating crisps, and not presenting any threat, I don’t think you should be able to shoot him, either. (You might schedule a c-section or call the police to help you force the guy out of your house. Neither of those should involve killing, unless something goes badly wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/47 "2020-01-30T22:04:03Z")
I would never argue that an early-term fetus is a person because I’m not a liar and don’t engage in the practice of telling lies for convenience or political benefit. Also, if I _was_ convinced that a fetus was a person, I might not be pro-choice. I mean, the arguments for pro-choice are much stronger when it’s between “the woman or controlling misogynists who want to enslave her as baby factory” rather than “the mother’s bodily rights or a person’s _life_.” Yes, there is an argument based in bodily rights, but I’ve never given it a full analysis because I’m not deluded enough to think that there’s a person in there. Arguments for late-term abortions seem to be mostly based on things like threats to the the mother’s life, which is yet another argument that I feel is stronger than the argument based on bodily autonomy. So yeah - I’m not inclined to throw out reality and adopt a weaker position based on delusion in order to coddle religious nuts and those who wish to enslave and dehumanize women. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/48 "2020-01-30T22:08:35Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Not to get off-topic, but Hitler was hardly a Christian, he was involved in the occult. And he was not anti-abortion, only against aborting Aryans. Hitler was okay with abortion for non-Aryans not because he was pro-abortion, it was because he was anti-anyone-who’s-not-Aryan. Whether being into the occult prevents someone from being a Christian isn’t a call either you or I are in a position to make. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/49 "2020-01-30T22:08:52Z")
**Velocity** , we know exactly what happens when fetuses are declared persons. In fact, pro-lifers are pushing personhood bills as we speak. The result is legal jeopardy for women who have miscarriages, or who aren’t careful enough while pregnant, or who get in the way of a bullet heading towards their uterus. So, you tell me – why should pro-choicers adopt this language? A person is different than a human – a human with no brain is no longer considered a person, for example. I wouldn’t argue that a blastocyst, fetus, etc., isn’t human tissue – of course it’s human tissue. It’s just not a person for legal purposes – personhood brings all kinds of rights that fetuses, embryos, etc., shouldn’t get in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/50 "2020-01-30T23:11:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It is? Why? What’s the difference between these scenarios: > > A. Personhood attaches at conception > B. Personhood attaches at birth > > If the difference is “we don’t legally kill persons”, then I have to point out that, yes, we _do_ and have been doing so for quite a long time. We execute condemned criminals. I dont like it, but we do. But if it is scenario B, then abortion doesnt kill persons. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/51 "2020-01-30T23:14:36Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Then the pro-lifer doesn’t have much left to say. If a pro-choicer says, “Fetus personhood or not, if a woman wants to abort, she should have the right to abort,” what rebuttal do you give to that? The pro-choicer has just acknowledged the full length and depth of the pro-lifer’s argument and \*\*\*still \*\*\*dismissed it. > . The rebuttal is then- \*\*Ok you just committed murder and you are going to prison. \*\* Which is already trying to be law in some states. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/52 "2020-01-30T23:17:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Have you not heard of twins? > > Anyway, I suspect the point was that declaring a fertilized egg to be a human makes about as much sense as declaring an individual sperm to be a human. Exactly. Or a un-fertilized egg, making it a law that a woman _must_ get pregnant instead of losing her egg. \*\*This is why the definition of personhood is the whole argument. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/53 "2020-01-30T23:31:21Z")
While I have not performed therapeutic abortions, I have managed spontaneous ones circa eight to fifteen weeks or so. And having dealt with the expelled products of conception, I cannot feel that those tiny bits represent a person. A potential person, yeah I can buy into that. For sure. But to me a potential person’s rights don’t trump the rights of the person carrying the potential person. I have also managed miscarriages/stillbirths. Those do seem to me to be more like the loss of a person, moreso the more advanced they are. So where do I personally draw the line between potential person and person? Not sure. But it is sometime after the first trimester, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/54 "2020-01-31T00:05:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We execute condemned criminals. I dont like it, but we do. My country doesn’t, but that’s not the only scenario where a person can be legally killed. > [@](#): > > But if it is scenario B, then abortion doesnt kill persons. This is a non-sequitur; at birth, abortion becomes moot, and it doesn’t clarify the difference between the proposed scenarios A and B. Is there a practical difference between assigning the label personhood at conception versus assigning it at birth and if so, what is it? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/55 "2020-01-31T00:08:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > This is a non-sequitur; at birth, abortion becomes moot, and it doesn’t clarify the difference between the proposed scenarios A and B. Is there a practical difference between assigning the label personhood at conception versus assigning it at birth and if so, what is it? Are you serious? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/56 "2020-01-31T00:15:26Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you serious? Are _you_ serious? I’m asking DrDeth to expand on his post 21 in which he asserts: > [@](#): > > "At what time is a fetus a “person”? > > That’s the relevant question. I asked Velocity the same and his reply in 35 suggests he thinks pro-lifers would be defeated or thwarted or at least significantly silenced, which I find to be wildly absurdly optimistic. I’m pretty sure _I_ have a good handle on why pro-lifers want to attach the label personhood to a fetus, but Velocity’s proposal that pro-choicers should just concede the matter is unconvincing at best. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/57 "2020-01-31T00:23:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are _you_ serious? I’m asking DrDeth to expand on his post 21 in which he asserts: > > I asked Velocity the same and his reply in 35 suggests he thinks pro-lifers would be defeated or thwarted or at least significantly silenced, which I find to be wildly absurdly optimistic. I’m pretty sure _I_ have a good handle on why pro-lifers want to attach the label personhood to a fetus, but Velocity’s proposal that pro-choicers should just concede the matter is unconvincing at best. It seemed pretty clear to me that **DrDeth** was saying that abortions don’t kill people if we don’t consider fetuses people. The fact that abortions are only done to fetuses prior to birth goes without saying. The fact that their status as a person or not is different is the difference between scenarios A and B goes without saying. The fact that the resulting lack of events that might be called murders is a practical difference between scenario A and B goes without saying. The fact that you seem to be questioning a lot of things that go without saying confuses me. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/58 "2020-01-31T00:24:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Exactly. Or a un-fertilized egg, making it a law that a woman _must_ get pregnant instead of losing her egg. > > \*\*This is why the definition of personhood is the whole argument. \*\* I’m not getting it, I admit. In practice, isn’t declaring a fetus to be a person at some stage _X_ in its development done solely as a prelude to telling the mother that she can no longer can choose to abort? What other effect does it have or _could_ it have? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/59 "2020-01-31T00:33:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The fact that the resulting lack of events that might be called murders is a practical difference between scenario A and B goes without saying. Fine, you recognize this outcome and I recognize this outcome but I don’t know if DrDeth recognizes this outcome and Velocity certainly doesn’t recognize this outcome, or least didn’t in post 35. It’s really the obvious answer to the original question: Q: Why don’t pro-choicers just recognize fetuses as persons? A: Because pro-choicers don’t want to extend to pro-lifers an invitation to call pro-choicers murderers because that would follow and not, as the OP suggests, disarm pro-life arguments. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/60 "2020-01-31T00:44:59Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > While I have not performed therapeutic abortions, I have managed spontaneous ones circa eight to fifteen weeks or so. And having dealt with the expelled products of conception, I cannot feel that those tiny bits represent a person. A potential person, yeah I can buy into that. For sure. But to me a potential person’s rights don’t trump the rights of the person carrying the potential person. > > I have also managed miscarriages/stillbirths. Those do seem to me to be more like the loss of a person, moreso the more advanced they are. > > So where do I personally draw the line between potential person and person? Not sure. But it is sometime after the first trimester, in my opinion. Thank you Doc, your insight here is valuable. Yes, certainly, I’d have no problem with banning 3rd trimester abortions unless the mothers lives was in danger or other special circumstances. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=4)