# Abortion: Why don't pro-choicers just say, "It kills a person, but it's a unique circumstance?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228 "2020-01-30T16:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/81 "2020-01-31T12:06:17Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > … > I think almost everyone on both sides would agree that it’s at least a _potential_ person Both sides would NOT agree, unless you also define ‘at least a potential person’ to include adults. You made a good strawman here though, which leads one to take t down while not addressing the argument: > [@](#): > > but to me that’s not the same as a person. Yet considering that a fetus has the potential to become a human being I think it’s deliberately inflammatory to equate it to an appendix The thing is to one side it is a person, not a potential person. And the phrasing potential person is wishy washy nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/82 "2020-01-31T12:10:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > There is no objectively logical reason to declare a fertilized ovum, invisible to the naked eye, to be a fully human person … I snipped this because just this alone one could may a case for a fertilized ovum to be fully human. But your next part… > [@](#): > > …to be a fully human person with the same right to life that a born human person has… With this addition I agree that the rights are different due to circumstances of environment and sovereignty. Add to that children don’t have the same rights as adults , and there is no reason to expect equal rights. But we might talk about universal rights and what they may be. I still think the fetus loses it’s life under universal rights. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/83 "2020-01-31T12:26:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Above all the other reasons, why would I argue something that (I believe) isn’t true? For 20+ weeks, the fetus lacks a brain, the bare minimum for it to be a person, since it’s the minimum for it to be an entity in its own right… While I respect this I also disagree with this. My belief is that the human entity can be defined as a soul, the brain is the interface to interpret the senses of the body and do some processing and storage. Though without the brain the soul would not be interfaced to its body in that respect. I also consider the heart the physical seat of the soul (the heart is not the soul, but it is the physical manifestation from the soul), so there would be understanding of ‘home’ and ‘Love’, which I would say qualifies it with the basic wiring for humanity and death of the fetus’s body severs this connection. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/84 "2020-01-31T13:06:48Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Both sides would NOT agree, unless you also define ‘at least a potential person’ to include adults. You made a good strawman here though, which leads one to take t down while not addressing the argument: > > The thing is to one side it is a person, not a potential person. And the phrasing potential person is wishy washy nonsense. How is it a strawman? And who in general would disagree that a fetus is a potential person? OK, sure. You can find some nutty malcontent who will insist a human fetus is a actually a potential elephant but I’m afraid that doesn’t count. Wishy-washy nonsense? How so? Do you assert that a fetus is _not_ a potential person? BTW, ‘potential persons’ do not include adult humans as they are actual extant persons not merely potential persons. ETA: I’ve now read your other posts, **kanic** , and I think I understand now. You’re playing the ‘soul card’. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/85 "2020-01-31T14:00:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > While I respect this I also disagree with this. My belief is that the human entity can be defined as a soul, the brain is the interface to interpret the senses of the body and do some processing and storage. Though without the brain the soul would not be interfaced to its body in that respect. > > I also consider the heart the physical seat of the soul (the heart is not the soul, but it is the physical manifestation from the soul), so there would be understanding of ‘home’ and ‘Love’, which I would say qualifies it with the basic wiring for humanity and death of the fetus’s body severs this connection. At what stage of the developing fetus does the soul enter the body/heart/brain? Where does it come from? Where does it go if the fetus is not carried to term? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/86 "2020-01-31T14:14:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At what stage of the developing fetus does the soul enter the body/heart/brain? Where does it come from? Where does it go if the fetus is not carried to term? -My own belief the soul ‘solidifies’ itself inside the body at first breath. This is the end of the time in the womb which is biblically not the same as a uterus. While in the womb the fetus is basically not really yet part of our world. - The soul is a aspect of God and was created a long time ago, or eternal. - If the fetus is not carried to term it goes back to God pain and death free mostly, however by a free will decision of the fetus, it also can chose death (which is just another path, though less peasant but will eventually end up the same place as we all will ) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/87 "2020-01-31T14:17:27Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > How is it a strawman? And who in general would disagree that a fetus is a potential person? OK, sure. You can find some nutty malcontent who will insist a human fetus is a actually a potential elephant but I’m afraid that doesn’t count. > > Wishy-washy nonsense? How so? Do you assert that a fetus is _not_ a potential person? > > BTW, ‘potential persons’ do not include adult humans as they are actual extant persons not merely potential persons. > > ETA: I’ve now read your other posts, **kanic** , and I think I understand now. You’re playing the ‘soul card’. No soul card on this one. Your strawman is that both sides would agree that a fetus is a potential person. That is incorrect, many would consider a fetus a full person. That is the contention of the right to life side. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/88 "2020-01-31T14:25:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > -My own belief the soul ‘solidifies’ itself inside the body at first breath. This is the end of the time in the womb which is biblically not the same as a uterus. While in the womb the fetus is basically not really yet part of our world. > > - The soul is a aspect of God and was created a long time ago, or eternal. > > - If the fetus is not carried to term it goes back to God pain and death free mostly, however by a free will decision of the fetus, it also can chose death (which is just another path, though less peasant but will eventually end up the same place as we all will ) I realize you can’t provide evidence for the above but it’s interesting that you side with pro-choice positions despite the obvious complications created by your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/89 "2020-01-31T14:32:24Z")
The rah-rah Christians tell pregnant women that God chose them to be the mother of that baby, so he gave it permission to use her body. Right, God chooses woman to get pregnant via rape, even though he could stop it. And anti-abortion minister Randy Alcorn states “It is reasonable to expect a person to go through a temporary inconvenience if the only alternative is the death of another person.” Yes, pregnancy is a temporary inconvenience. Of course, every time Alcorn mentions adoption, it’s always to straight married Christian couples. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/90 "2020-01-31T14:35:15Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > How is it a strawman? And who in general would disagree that a fetus is a potential person? OK, sure. You can find some nutty malcontent who will insist a human fetus is a actually a potential elephant but I’m afraid that doesn’t count. > > Wishy-washy nonsense? How so? Do you assert that a fetus is _not_ a potential person? > > BTW, ‘potential persons’ do not include adult humans as they are actual extant persons not merely potential persons. > > ETA: I’ve now read your other posts, **kanic** , and I think I understand now. You’re playing the ‘soul card’. Going more into this. A potential person would be sperm + egg not combined to many pro-lifers. Once combined it is a person in a certain stage of development, no different then caterpillar/butterfly or tadpole/frog. It’s a different development stage and a different environment, but still human and thus still worthy of human respect. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/91 "2020-01-31T14:44:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I realize you can’t provide evidence for the above but it’s interesting that you side with pro-choice positions despite the obvious complications created by your beliefs. I used to be very religiously pro life, and have argued that point many times on this board. Since then I believe God has revealed what life is for a fetus, what abortion is like for a fetus (generally nothing more then daddy picking you up from daycare) and also has shown me in scripture what God says about this subject, which is revealed, I believe very clearly, by researching what is the ‘womb’ biblically. A womb is not biblically what we think it is. The short of it is with all the hub bub we make about abortion, God is sadly laughing as we have nothing at all to do with it, we can’t take a fetal person’s life, God didn’t give us that ability. The hard part was to realize what a rat-bastard I was, speaking so arrogantly on a topic I didn’t understand. That part was ok it itself, however the part which was really difficult was that what I spoke hurt and condemned women, I even had one in tears repent of murder of her unborn due to the words I spoke. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/92 "2020-01-31T14:47:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Once combined it is a person in a certain stage of development So you’re saying that one person can turn into two separate people (in the case of identical twins)? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/93 "2020-01-31T14:51:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I used to be very religiously pro life, and have argued that point many times on this board. Since then I believe God has revealed what life is for a fetus, what abortion is like for a fetus (generally nothing more then daddy picking you up from daycare) and also has shown me in scripture what God says about this subject, which is revealed, I believe very clearly, by researching what is the ‘womb’ biblically. A womb is not biblically what we think it is. > > The short of it is with all the hub bub we make about abortion, God is sadly laughing as we have nothing at all to do with it, we can’t take a fetal person’s life, God didn’t give us that ability. > > The hard part was to realize what a rat-bastard I was, speaking so arrogantly on a topic I didn’t understand. That part was ok it itself, however the part which was really difficult was that what I spoke hurt and condemned women, I even had one in tears repent of murder of her unborn due to the words I spoke. I reject your entire belief system. But if you say that you no longer judge and condemn women for the choices they make about their bodies, I consider that a positive evolution in your behavior/attitude towards women. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/94 "2020-01-31T14:57:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Because if the pro-choice side ever \*did \*use such an argument, it would essentially shut up most pro-life arguments in one fell swoop. It would be acknowledging the pro-life argument (that a fetus is a person) while also brushing it aside at the same time. The pro-life side would then have a hard time making much further argument. Why are we spending so much space on discussing an OP that has this nugget of “logic” in it? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/95 "2020-01-31T15:15:09Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Why are we spending so much space on discussing an OP that has this nugget of “logic” in it? Habit, mostly. Somebody is wrong on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/96 "2020-01-31T15:32:59Z")
I imagine maybe they don’t because that could also be used to justify capital punishment, and a lot of pro-choicers are anti-capital punishment. An argument about abortion really shouldn’t lead into an argument about capital punishment, but you know it inevitably will. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/97 "2020-01-31T15:36:26Z")
It would take away the pro-life argument that the pro-choice side is being unscientific, but it ultimately changes nothing. The vast majority of pro-lifers are not trying to oppress women but rather find abortion as appealing as modern day slavery and are just as likely to vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/98 "2020-01-31T15:43:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not “tortured definition-logic”: it’s acknowledging the complexity of reality. > > There is no objectively logical reason to declare a fertilized ovum, invisible to the naked eye, to be a fully human person with the same right to life that a born human person has. If you hold some kind of supernatural belief in “personhood” as a quality conferred by some divine being at the moment of conception, then okay, you consider a fertilized ovum a person. But that’s not a reason for anybody who doesn’t share your beliefs to consider it a person. > > Biologically, human beings continuously develop during gestation from invisible nonsentient clumps of cells to very high-functioning infants. **There is no objectively obvious point in that development where “becoming a person” happens** , because all of the characteristics and abilities that we associate with personhood are constantly changing in a continuous process. > > So it’s up to us as members of a society to decide where we think we should draw the line between _“not sufficiently a person to have a protected right to life”_ and _“sufficiently a person to have a protected right to life”_. > > If you really imagine that all people, even pro-choice advocates, secretly agree with you in drawing that line at the moment of conception but the pro-choice advocates are just refusing to admit it, you’re deluding yourself. We don’t really know where that line, though. Scientists make a guess based on how we tend to define a person, but we really don’t know. Pro-lifers prefer to air on the side of caution and say, “since we don’t know, it’s best not to guess.” Pro-choicers draw a line in the sand. Both sides make sense. But choicers are branded as baby killers, while lifers are branded as women-haters :rolleyes: I’d like to know what pro-choicers feel about the violent death of a \*wanted \*fetus. Say a pregnant woman is mugged, and being hit in the stomach resulted in the fetus dying. How should the mugger be charged? I’d personally like to see them charged with at least manslaughter. But since that fetus isn’t legally deemed a person, how can they? What is the physical difference between a fetus that is wanted and a fetus that isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/99 "2020-01-31T15:44:23Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Wasn’t it uncovered that Margaret Sanger wanted abortion because it would get rid of black babies? No, that’s a lie the anti-abortion movement tries to spread by quoting one of her letters out of context. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/100 "2020-01-31T15:48:20Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > So you’re saying that one person can turn into two separate people (in the case of identical twins)? Looking at the cellular level of development: I would say that the fertilized egg was both one and the other person at the same time, so both would share a common origin. So just fall into another state of human development. Looking at the soul level: I would say IDK, but could speculate about it. In the Bible God made a person out of the side (or rib) of another, so it seems possible to split a person into 2 people. I can see it going either way, one soul which contained enough to divide into 2, or 2 to begin with. I have not really thought about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=6)