# Abortion: Why don't pro-choicers just say, "It kills a person, but it's a unique circumstance?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228 "2020-01-30T16:43:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/121 "2020-02-01T00:23:05Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > We don’t really know where that line, though. Scientists make a guess based on how we tend to define a person, but we really don’t know. Yes, that’s the point: we don’t know objectively where to draw that line, because that line doesn’t exist in any identifiable biological sense. “Personhood” is a social construct, not a scientific fact. So yeah, we as a society have to make an arbitrary decision about where we think it makes the most sense to draw that line. > [@Kovitlac](#): > > I’d like to know what pro-choicers feel about the violent death of a \*wanted \*fetus. Say a pregnant woman is mugged, and being hit in the stomach resulted in the fetus dying. How should the mugger be charged? What **Voyager** said, perhaps with extra severity for having caused irreparable harm to the mother-to-be in the death of her child. Yes, I said “child”, because if the pregnant woman considers her wanted fetus to be a child right from the get-go, then I’m considering it that way too. Socially speaking, it’s entirely up to a pregnant woman whether she wants to consider her early-term embryo/fetus a person or not, and other people should respect her choice. Personhood is a social construct, as I said, and in early pregnancy it can depend on a variety of individual circumstances that don’t have to be consistent over time or from one individual to another. But **legally** speaking, as **Voyager** also said, declaring an early-term fetus to be officially a person is opening up a completely impracticable can of worms, because legal status is supposed to be consistent. Should parents-to-be need to get a conception certificate to document their embryo’s existence, as we require birth certificates for born persons? Should all miscarriages be investigated like any other untimely death from unknown causes? **Legally** assigning a fetus full personhood status is something that’s impossible to carry through consistently. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/122 "2020-02-01T00:47:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What **Voyager** said, perhaps with extra severity for having caused irreparable harm to the mother-to-be in the death of her child. > > Yes, I said “child”, because if the pregnant woman considers her wanted fetus to be a child right from the get-go, then I’m considering it that way too. Socially speaking, it’s entirely up to a pregnant woman whether she wants to consider her early-term embryo/fetus a person or not, and other people should respect her choice. Personhood is a social construct, as I said, and in early pregnancy it can depend on a variety of individual circumstances that don’t have to be consistent over time or from one individual to another. Speaking of being unable to carry definitions through consistently, you can’t possibly be serious in saying that the fetus is a “child” because the mom says so, or you’d be saying the mugger should be charged with murder. What _would_ be consistent would be recognizing that the fetus is an irreplaceable possession with (in this case) tremendous sentimental value. I dunno how the law works regarding that, but it seems reasonable to apply such law to a destroyed fetus too. Of course this would also mean that if the person _doesn’t_ value their irreplaceable possessions, then the person is free to destroy them or have them destroyed if they wish. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/123 "2020-02-01T01:43:36Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Speaking of being unable to carry definitions through consistently, you can’t possibly be serious in saying that the fetus is a “child” because the mom says so, or you’d be saying the mugger should be charged with murder. I’ve heard this POV expressed that the fetus is a human at the will of the mother. In a age of legal abortion it does make sense. A fetus that will be aborted, if it is somehow harmed or killed by someone, no harm no fowl as far as the fetus goes as that was never a person. However if the mother did plan to keep the child, and it is thus harmed/killed, the fetus could be considered human and murder/manslaughter charges could apply. This would also legally allow abortions as the mother wanting an abortion has never given human rights to that fetus. > [@](#): > > What _would_ be consistent would be recognizing that the fetus is an irreplaceable possession with (in this case) tremendous sentimental value. I dunno how the law works regarding that, but it seems reasonable to apply such law to a destroyed fetus too. Of course this would also mean that if the person _doesn’t_ value their irreplaceable possessions, then the person is free to destroy them or have them destroyed if they wish. This is basically old testament law, the killing of a fetus was basically a property crime against the woman which was a civil fine. There was no hint that it was a taking of a life in that, nor any rights for the unborn acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/124 "2020-02-01T04:23:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > _Per the new GD rules, I’m hoping this can be a thread for a narrow focus on just one aspect of the abortion debate, without morphing into the same old abortion debate we’ve had for decades - hope the mods can clamp down on any hijacking:_ > > For decades, there has been this ongoing war of words over whether a fetus is a person or not, with some saying it is, and some saying “a fetus is just a piece of human tissue,” and some holding other views. But surprisingly rarely do you hear the pro-choice side ever just say, **“Yes, abortion kills a person, but it’s a unique circumstance not fully analogous to anything else.”** Such a concession would demolish the pro-choice argument for all but the most ardent abortion activists. First, the situation is hardly unique. Every person on this earth is here because we spent time in our mother’s womb. Humanity cannot survive without such a period of time inside a woman. Conceding personhood would present the “choice” for what it is: on one side you have the killing of a person while on the other you have the inconvenience of the mother who (putting aside the rape exception) has consented to sex and the possibility of pregnancy. Looking at this balance of harms, there is really no dispute in my mind where the greater harm lies. The “but the baby is an intruder or trespasser so it can be killed” argument is absurd as it makes wrongdoers out of all humans who have ever lived. Roe itself would have come out differently with such a concession. There the balance was the woman’s choice versus a mere potentiality of human life and held definitely not to be a person. That makes the balance more difficult, but one as I have said before is for legislation, not any constitutional right. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/125 "2020-02-01T04:47:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The “but the baby is an intruder or trespasser so it can be killed” argument is absurd as it makes wrongdoers out of all humans who have ever lived. Nonsense. Many humans were invited. According to the supposed logic of your argument, every human who ever entered somebody else’s house is a trespasser, and everyone who ever had sex was a rapist. You’re claiming that whether I want someone inside my house, or inside my body, makes no difference whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/126 "2020-02-01T04:48:11Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > A fetus or embryo is simultaneously alive and human and > > …not a person. But that’s the point. I don’t think we need to denigrate the embryo into “something less than” in order to legitimate the killing of it. She is mom, she is woman. It’s her body, it’s her potential child. It’s really _not_ just a clump of cells, just tissue; if she wanted it and someone aborted her pregnancy without her consent, that would surely be a crime. But it’s also a part of her body and she gets to consent or decline consent and choose to abort _regardless_ of the fact that what she’s aborting is a human living person just like us. It’s not its lack of personhood or its lack of being human or it’s lack of being independently alive or whatever that makes it OK for her to do this. It’s who she is that makes it OK for her to do this. She’s in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/127 "2020-02-01T06:57:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In fact the anti-abortionists (They are not pro-life), do just the opposite. They fight hard against Prenatal care as it is often mixed in with birth control and even abortion advice. For example in the liberal Pro-choice state California, the California Maternal Quality Care Collaborative, reduced the rate of child or mother deaths due to childbirth by half: Fascinating. Thank you for that. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/128 "2020-02-01T14:53:52Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Not to get off-topic, but Hitler was hardly a Christian, he was involved in the occult. And he was not anti-abortion, only against aborting Aryans. > Wasn’t it uncovered that Margaret Sanger wanted abortion because it would get rid of black babies? > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No, that’s a lie the anti-abortion movement tries to spread by quoting one of her letters out of context. [Snopes on the subject](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/margaret-sanger-kkk/) Sanger was asked to speak at a rally of the women’s branch of the Klan, and she went out of curiosity. When asked about it, she said the women of the Klan were very single minded in their thinking. Anyone who thinks about this for about twenty seconds would realize that the all male, anti-women Klan would never let a women speak to them at all, ever. But the anti-abortion movement is not above lying to get their desired results. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/129 "2020-02-01T15:06:06Z")
There’s also the anti-abortion argument that the mother has no say in whether to continue with the pregnancy, as pregnancy is “nothing” and the fetus has the right to use the mother’s body because “God put it there.” ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/130 "2020-02-01T15:47:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > There is a odd offshoot about this. > > Many pro-lifers are republicans. End abortion, end birth control and we will have many home grown babies who will more tend to vote republican… Home grown? As opposed to the ones you can get in the store or through a foreign fair trade? ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/131 "2020-02-01T15:49:03Z")
I am a “pro-lifer” who wants birth control taught in schools (it wasn’t when I was taught) and free birth control for men and women. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/132 "2020-02-01T17:24:02Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > [Snopes on the subject](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/margaret-sanger-kkk/) > > Sanger was asked to speak at a rally of the women’s branch of the Klan, and she went out of curiosity. When asked about it, she said the women of the Klan were very single minded in their thinking… > > Anyone who thinks about this for about twenty seconds would realize that the all male, anti-women Klan would never let a women speak to them at all, ever. But the anti-abortion movement is not above lying to get their desired results. Thank you. I’ve heard that claim, but never did the research to refute it. Now I have a handy link I can find if I ever run across it again. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/133 "2020-02-01T17:30:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yes, that’s the point: we don’t know objectively where to draw that line, because that line doesn’t exist in any identifiable biological sense. “Personhood” is a social construct, not a scientific fact. > > So yeah, we as a society have to make an arbitrary decision about where we think it makes the most sense to draw that line. We do that in many areas. We draw arbitrary lines on spectrums delineating one side from the other. There is not scientific reason why a zillion sand particles is not a heap, but a zillion plus one is, it is a social construct that we have chosen. Is there a scientific definition of an adult? Can you use science to tell the difference between a 17 year old the day before his birthday and an 18 year old the day after? Can science tell us what has changed that turns a child into an adult? > [@](#): > > What **Voyager** said, perhaps with extra severity for having caused irreparable harm to the mother-to-be in the death of her child. > > Yes, I said “child”, because if the pregnant woman considers her wanted fetus to be a child right from the get-go, then I’m considering it that way too. Socially speaking, it’s entirely up to a pregnant woman whether she wants to consider her early-term embryo/fetus a person or not, and other people should respect her choice. Personhood is a social construct, as I said, and in early pregnancy it can depend on a variety of individual circumstances that don’t have to be consistent over time or from one individual to another. > > But **legally** speaking, as **Voyager** also said, declaring an early-term fetus to be officially a person is opening up a completely impracticable can of worms, because legal status is supposed to be consistent. Should parents-to-be need to get a conception certificate to document their embryo’s existence, as we require birth certificates for born persons? Should all miscarriages be investigated like any other untimely death from unknown causes? **Legally** assigning a fetus full personhood status is something that’s impossible to carry through consistently. I believe that a fetus should have exactly the rights that the mother wishes to extend to it. If she wants to consider it to be a “person” with all the rights that a person should have, then she should be able to press charges against someone who causes harm to her wanted child. She should be able to initiate an investigation into a miscarriage, and hold any parties responsible to the same as though they had killed a newborn. Also, if she wants to consider it to be an unwanted burden on her body and her life, and wishes to discard it, I absolutely support that decision as well. There is only one person in the world who is actually equipped to make the decision, and I actually rather resent those who will never have to make such a decision trying to take it away from her. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/134 "2020-02-01T17:38:44Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Home grown? As opposed to the ones you can get in the store or through a foreign fair trade? If you read the rest it was answered, foreign fair trade imported would be the alternative to home grown babies. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/135 "2020-02-01T18:00:20Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Thank you. I’ve heard that claim, but never did the research to refute it. Now I have a handy link I can find if I ever run across it again. You are welcome, though one “pro-lifer” told me “Snopes is not a reliable sight.” He could not refute my claim that the Klan would never let a woman tell them what to do, or listen to her. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/136 "2020-02-01T18:28:01Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I am a “pro-lifer” who wants birth control taught in schools (it wasn’t when I was taught) and free birth control for men and women. Good for you, but you still don’t understand the value of Planned Parenthood. Get an understanding of how much good they do, even by your standards, and starting pushing birth control education, access, and (non abortion if you must) PP funding on your fellow pro-lifers and we’ll find some common ground. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/137 "2020-02-01T18:48:37Z")
Something occurred to me last night; what of the men who have gotten these women pregnant, they have to stand by and watch the women kill their children who may have been born. I’m not a man, but it occurred to me, what of their rights? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/138 "2020-02-01T19:37:10Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Something occurred to me last night; what of the men who have gotten these women pregnant, they have to stand by and watch the women kill their children who may have been born. I’m not a man, but it occurred to me, what of their rights? Their rights don’t override the woman’s rights. At any rate, not unless and until we can magick the fetus out of her body and into theirs. And that may just have occured to you last night, but it’s a really old argument. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/139 "2020-02-01T20:12:45Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Something occurred to me last night; what of the men who have gotten these women pregnant, they have to stand by and watch the women kill their children who may have been born. I’m not a man, but it occurred to me, what of their rights? Do I have a right to your body? If I have sex with you, does that mean that you may have to give up your bodily autonomy to me for 9 or so months? I do think that the father is about the only person other than the mother who’s opinion means anything, but their opinion should be in no way binding upon her actions. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2020, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228/140 "2020-02-02T01:18:19Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > Something occurred to me last night; what of the men who have gotten these women pregnant, they have to stand by and watch the women kill their children who may have been born. I’m not a man, but it occurred to me, what of their rights? If we men have the right to stop a woman from removing the fetus within her, should we also have the right to force her to remove the fetus? After all, we might want to avoid child support. Likewise, if a man could prevent an abortion, shouldn’t he be responsible for 100% of child support? Maybe it is just easier to let the woman decide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-why-dont-pro-choicers-just-say-it-kills-a-person-but-its-a-unique-circumstance/847228.md?page=8)