# Abortion. Yes or No? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791 "2003-07-25T02:56:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/81 "2003-07-30T13:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Don’t be disingenuous. The penalty isn’t for having sex. It’s for taking a human life. > > Mind you, I only favor imprisonment for the actual abortion providers, and not for the mothers, who may very well be distraught and acting out of panic. Either way though, **Panis** clearly was not advocating imprisoning women merely for engaging in sexual intercourse, and it’s intellectually dishonest to say otherwise. \*\* What about women who self-abort? ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/82 "2003-07-30T13:56:33Z")
Surley its more immoral to have a baby you dont really want and bringing it up not really caring about it? I dont know about giving it up for adoption either as i’m sure there are quite a few babies who never get adopted and end up in care homes with pretty much the same predicament. I think that the short term pain of making the descision to abort a baby is preferable to the long term pain that child could suffer. I think its up to the woman and is acceptable under any circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/83 "2003-07-30T15:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Don’t be disingenuous. The penalty isn’t for having sex. It’s for taking a human life. \*\* Panis was suggesting women be jailed for giving their baby up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/84 "2003-07-31T01:33:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\*Just curious, **JThunder** , as to what you think of the few, like myself (and **catsix,** I think) who have already made the decision to abort any pregnancy, in an undistraught and panic-free mental state, before having sex ? Because we’ve made that choice _prior_ to any possible panicked state, would you favour imprisonment in that case ? I’m talking, theoretically, because both of us know full well it wouldn’t be practical to have a “non-distraught choice” legal loophole. \*\* I would not favor imprisonment. It’s immaterial whether or not it’s “deserved”–and don’t try to infer a judgment either way from this post. But IMO, pursuing this provides political fodder for the pro-choice camp (“Look! They want to imprison women for making personal choices!”) and would be not be palatable to most of the voting public, even if they opposed abortion. I’d be happy with a ban that imprisoned abortion providers. I believe that’s a policy that has the best possibility of reducing abortions, which is my objective. And BTW, I disagree with your point that a “non-distraught choice” loophole isn’t practical. It’s very practical, being the current practice in our legal system. State of mind is quite often a factor in determining guilt and in sentencing. I just wouldn’t categorize it as a loophole. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/85 "2003-07-31T04:35:04Z")
**Bob Cos** neatly summarized what I was going to say. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/86 "2003-07-31T10:56:48Z")
Thank you, **Bob Cos** and **JThunder** for answering in the spirit the question was asked. I guess I’d agree that the “loophole” could be arguable, given our current legal system, I just didn’t want my question to appear like I was trying to force you into an ethical answer and then try and argue it legally or practically. **Catsix,** yep, I’m with you in that it wouldn’t matter what the consequences were. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/87 "2003-07-31T13:08:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bob Cos** said: > I’d be happy with a ban that imprisoned abortion providers. Since the ‘War on Drugs’ works so well and we know who all the drug dealers are, how long do you think it would take before there was a very suitable black market for Mifepristone? Abortions would only be driven undground, women you never had a way of knowing were pregnant taking a trip to Canada or Mexico and taking Mifepristone, or getting it from someone else who managed to get it into the country. You’re never going to stop abortion, no matter how many consequences you try to put on it, because there are enough women like **Goo** and myself who think there is no consequence greater than to be forced into carrying a pregnancy we don’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/88 "2003-07-31T22:50:44Z")
Yes, it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/89 "2003-07-31T23:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*You’re never going to stop abortion, no matter how many consequences you try to put on it, because there are enough women like **Goo** and myself who think there is no consequence greater than to be forced into carrying a pregnancy we don’t want. \*\* If by that you mean, “You’re never going to stop _ **all** _ abortions,” I agree with you. But a ban would certainly significantly reduce the number of abortions, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/90 "2003-07-31T23:31:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\* > You’re never going to stop abortion, no matter how many consequences you try to put on it, because there are enough women like **Goo** and myself who think there is no consequence greater than to be forced into carrying a pregnancy we don’t want. \*\* It’s easy to use prohibition or anti-drug laws for comparison, but what about laws that you **favor** that still have plenty of violators? I’ll assume you support laws against child porn? I’ll assume you’ll recognize that there are plenty of folks who still produce and purchase child porn? (or pick any criminalized behavior whose criminalization you support…rape…white collar crime…) It’s funny, the folks who say “it’s dumb to outlaw **x** because plenty of people will still want to do **x** ” apparently have no problem outlawing **y** even though plenty of folks still will want to do **y**. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/91 "2003-07-31T23:45:31Z")
Well **beagledave** , unlike the examples you throw out, child porn, rape, white collar crime, there is no victim in an abortion. There is a victim if you attempt to force someone not to have an abortion. The latter should be a criminal action. However, I was speaking in terms of whether or not a ban would be effective at all, and my opinion is that due to the ability to get any number of already illegal drugs with relative ease, and the ease with which a person can travel to a place where abortion isn’t illegal (Canada, for example), if you did get your way, it’d be a mighty hollow victory. ---
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/92 "2003-07-31T23:49:43Z")
Abortion = Killing People However - Since nobody is affected enough, especially the mother, to want to keep the baby alive; it is logically sound to allow the baby to die at the hands of a hired killer. Life is only ‘important’ when it is able to be associated to. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791/93 "2003-07-31T23:50:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*Well **beagledave** , unlike the examples you throw out, child porn, rape, white collar crime, there is no victim in an abortion. Giggle. You would think that the folks who would enact this hypothetical legislation would think that there **is** a victim, ummm why else would they vote for such legislation? :smack: > [@](#): > > \*\* > However, I was speaking in terms of whether or not a ban would be effective at all, and my opinion is that due to the ability to get any number of already illegal drugs with relative ease, and the ease with which a person can travel to a place where abortion isn’t illegal (Canada, for example), if you did get your way, it’d be a mighty hollow victory. \*\* Can people still get child porn…even relatively easily? Is white collar crime still pretty pervasive? Women (and men) still being raped? Are laws against those activities “hollow victories”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion-yes-or-no/190791.md?page=4)