# Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098 "2008-10-29T15:49:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Emery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Emery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emery)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/1 "2008-10-29T15:49:45Z")
I’ve got to ask this, since this board is primarily quite liberal by the looks of it. How can anybody support abortion? By what means do you justify killing an unborn child, which is what it is. I’m very intersted in hearing what you folks have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/2 "2008-10-29T15:54:05Z")
You’ve never before in your life heard any justifications for abortion? Maybe you haven’t noticed but abortion is a pretty contentious issue. Lots of people have argued about it. Maybe a quick search on the previous 874 abortion threads could get you up to speed. Once you’ve read them and have a good idea of the sorts of arguments pro-choice people are likely to make, you can come back and let us know what you think. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/3 "2008-10-29T15:54:57Z")
There are loads of old threads on this, if you want to search back and find them. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/4 "2008-10-29T15:56:29Z")
Non sequitur. That which gets aborted is not an unborn child. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/5 "2008-10-29T15:58:02Z")
> [@Emery](#): > > which is what it is. Not to put too fine a point on it - says you. You see it as human life. I do not. Is it still ‘what it is’? At what point does that happen? Is it at conception (and should you therefore only ever have sex aimed at producing children)? If so should we ban masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, manual sex and all the wondrous variants we’ve come up with on the basis that since sperm is part and parcel of this ‘what it is’ it would be immoral let it go to waste? Insert your own Monty Python song here. I value freedom of choice and the health (mental, physical and financial) of the woman making that choice. Also: search the boards for more on this ---
**Author:** ![Emery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Emery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emery)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/6 "2008-10-29T15:58:10Z")
How did I miss that search feature? Woopsie daisy. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/7 "2008-10-29T16:01:31Z")
> [@Emery](#): > > By what means do you justify killing an unborn child, which is what it is. The debate is in that sentence. You see a “child”. I see a blastocyst. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/8 "2008-10-29T16:44:24Z")
I see three aspects to the abortion issue: 1. The fetus’ brain has not develope to the point where it could be considered a sentient being, i.e. a person. There is no exact moment when the fetus becomes sacred, but the law has to draw the line somewhere, and it’s reasonable to do so at some point later in the pregnancy so as to establish a margin of safety. 2. Women have the right to control their reproductive systems without the government forcing the bear children. 3. Out-of-wedlock or mistimed births are economically devastating so we need to maintain all the tools neccessary to keep that problem to a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/9 "2008-10-29T16:51:46Z")
At least early on, no brain. No brain equals no mind, no thought, no consciousness in my view that means no person. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/10 "2008-10-29T16:55:13Z")
Did you see the recent [Straight Dope column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2817/when-does-human-life-begin) on “When does human life begin?” > [@Emery](#): > > I’ve got to ask this, since this board is primarily quite liberal by the looks of it. How can anybody support abortion? By what means do you justify killing an unborn child, which is what it is. I’m very intersted in hearing what you folks have to say. Simply: Lots of people _don’t_ believe it’s an “unborn child” (as you can see from this thread). Then there are some people who don’t know or don’t care whether it’s an “unborn child,” but they believe the rights of the pregnant woman not to have to give birth to it take precendence. And some people think abortion is a bad thing but that trying to outlaw it would not be legally justified or would do more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/11 "2008-10-29T16:55:48Z")
Fetuses aren’t children. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/12 "2008-10-29T16:58:26Z")
Even if fetuses were children, I’m not comfortable with the government requiring females to provide board and lodging for another person for 9 months. I am pretty sure the OP would not be massively chuffed to be required by law to provide such support. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/13 "2008-10-29T17:04:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > And some people think abortion is a bad thing but that trying to outlaw it would not be legally justified or would do more harm than good. Pretty much my stance. Any woman who is considering the procedure is already in a sucky situation with no good way out. The least we can do is let the bad ways out be as easy and safe as possible. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/14 "2008-10-29T17:09:45Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Even if fetuses were children, I’m not comfortable with the government requiring females to provide board and lodging for another person for 9 months. I am pretty sure the OP would not be massively chuffed to be required by law to provide such support. I’d be intrigued to see someone make a 3rd amendment case for that one. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/15 "2008-10-29T17:10:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Then there are some people who don’t know or don’t care whether it’s an “unborn child,” but they believe the rights of the pregnant woman not to have to give birth to it take precendence. That’s what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/16 "2008-10-29T17:18:19Z")
In addition to what the others have already said, ultimately it’s a personal decision for any pregnant woman. If you don’t want to have an abortion, don’t have one. Don’t try to force your beliefs on another person. That’s unamerican. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/17 "2008-10-29T17:37:29Z")
> [@Emery](#): > > I’ve got to ask this, since this board is primarily quite liberal by the looks of it. How can anybody support abortion? By what means do you justify killing an unborn child, which is what it is. I’m very intersted in hearing what you folks have to say. That unborn child is also, simultaneously, and with absolutely equal validity, part of the body of the pregnant woman carrying it. You with me so far? OK then. Not all killing is murder. “Murder” is a contextually dependent value judgment. We have situations where we say “that was killing but it was not murder”. That does not mean we jump up and down and shout with bloodthirsty joy “yay killing is groovy”, but we recognize situations where we do not punish those who kill or actively try to prevent them from killing. For example, we may not like the fact that war exists; we may even say this _particular_ war is an unjust war; and yet we still generally regard the behavior of soldiers involved in it to not constitute “murder”. Even when the people they shoot were not an immediate threat to their own survival. I am not saying abortion is identical to war. Pregnancy, and abortion, are their own unique circumstance & situation and there is no perfect analogue. They are what they are. Some of us find that for the MOTHER to choose abortion, that is not murder. That she should have that option. That it is a special case, one of the circumstances where killing ≠ murder. You may not agree but do you understand? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/18 "2008-10-29T17:49:50Z")
Using a condom prevents a potential human from being born. What are the rights of this potential human? Should birth control be allowed? How many children have been kept from life by that use. Who speaks for this child? ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/19 "2008-10-29T17:53:06Z")
Unless you also believe that killing animals is wrong, you have to ask the question “What makes human life more valuable than animal life?” If you’re religious, you might phrase this as “What is it about humans that allows them to have a soul, unlike other animals?” or “What is it about humans that gives them a different kind of soul than an animal’s?” I believe that what makes us human (or what allows humans to have a soul, if you prefer) is consciousness. And we’re pretty sure that the brain functioning that allows for consciousness doesn’t develop until about the last trimester of pregnancy. I’m OK with abortion up to that point, against it after that. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098/20 "2008-10-29T18:01:25Z")
And if you believe that life begins at conception, then are you also opposed to birth control devices like the IUD, which simply prevent an embryo from implanting? If an embryo is life, then an IUD is murder, right? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortion/470098.md?page=2)