# Abortionists **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175 "2003-04-25T19:16:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/21 "2003-04-26T04:16:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **. As I understand it: > [ul][li]You believe abortions are evil.[/li][li]You want to know how a person could perform such an evil act.[/li][/ul]** This is right. But I’m not interested in how they _justify_ it, but how they can _face_ it. Such a question probably doesn’t have verbal answer so I don’t know what I expect from this thread. I’m just horrified and venting. But I also came here because I haven’t really thought about this much before yesterday and I’m genuinely interested in what people have to say. It’s true I’m not too interested in the arguments per se, but only I because I am _moved_ by the death of innocents more than said arguments – in a pre-intellectual way. But I do find it interesting that anyone is convinced by such arguments. It is a fact that not only are atrocities committed at times, but they also occur at times in societies that are persuaded by arguments in their favor and who are unmoved by the victim’s plight. The witch hunts, for instance. Do you think we hold some privileged position in history where we are now free from such errors? So did they. I do not. The situation today – from the pro-life point of view – is very similar to the abolitionist movement. The slaveholders had plenty of arguments in favor of their position – their **legal** activity, I might add (as if that mattered in a moral question). Now whether their arguments were less valid than the pro-choicer’s today is unimportant. To the person who was _moved_ by the sight of a beaten slave, the slaveholder’s arguments carried no weight, no matter how logical. We all like to think that we would be of the ones moved by the slave’s plight. But the fact is there were many who were not. Similarly, today there are those who are moved by the death of the unborn and those who are not. I expect that future generations will shake their heads at us in the same we do towards our slaveholding forefathers. Suppose we grant that abortions are a very necessary feature in our society. So what? Slavery was certainly a necessary feature of societies with any higher aspirations through most of history. That doesn’t make it any less tragic. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/22 "2003-04-26T04:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > \*\*[Moderaotr Hat ON] > > TGWATY, step out of line _even a hair_ again, and you will be banned, period, and I’m not sure I won’t ban you now. Just posting a warning does not absolve you from dispensing videos like that…hell, we don’t allow porn no matter how many warnings you put up before a link, why would you _ever_ think we would allow exceptionally bloody scenes with offensive lyrics in the background? I’ll be reviewing your posting history. > > [Moderaotr Hat OFF] \*\* Hey, didn’t you get my e-mail or whatever? I clicked on “Report this post to moderator” on my own OP after I posted it and told you maybe you should edit out the link or delete the thread if it was problem. You know, you wouldn’t have half of these problems if you allowed us to edit our messages after we post them. As for my posting history, that ends here. Banned is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/23 "2003-04-26T04:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > This is right. But I’m not interested in how they justify it, but how they can face it. Such a question probably doesn’t have verbal answer so I don’t know what I expect from this thread. I’m just horrified and venting. GD is not the forum for “venting.” If you want to spew anti-abortion polemic for its own sake, take it to the pit… But just to humor you one more time. Doctors who perform abortions are not “facing” anything horrofic. They are performing siurgery. If you want to nurture a fantasy that they are killing babies, then that’s your right but don’t project your hang-ups onto other people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/24 "2003-04-26T04:40:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TGWATY \* > \*\*Hey, didn’t you get my e-mail or whatever? I clicked on “Report this post to moderator” on my own OP after I posted it and told you maybe you should edit out the link or delete the thread if it was problem. You know, you wouldn’t have half of these problems if you allowed us to edit our messages after we post them. > > As for my posting history, that ends here. Banned is fine. \*\* I had a suspicion that I was giving sustenance to a bridge-dweller, but damn it, I went along with anyway thinking that maybe he was just really misguided. I should gone with my first instinct. ---
**Author:** ![TGWATY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@TGWATY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TGWATY)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/25 "2003-04-26T04:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I had a suspicion that I was giving sustenance to a bridge-dweller, but damn it, I went along with anyway thinking that maybe he was just really misguided. I should gone with my first instinct. \*\* I wasn’t going to post again, but I have to ask what’s a bridgedweller? I don’t know what your first instinct was, but on the boards I’m used to and am returning, people at least could take each other at their word and didn’t have to second guess their “real” motives. This was about the only thread I opened here that wasn’t fluff in Cafe Society or MPSMIS. Thanks for letting me know how things are here on the first shot, jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/26 "2003-04-26T05:15:13Z")
A bridge-dweller is someone who lives under a bridge. I think you’ll figure it out what I was implying if you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/27 "2003-04-26T06:06:10Z")
I wouldn’t want to perform abortions myself, for the same reason I wouldn’t want to be a heart surgeon or a coroner: cutting people open is icky. But that doesn’t lead me to ask “How can they do such a thing?”; it makes me _respect_ surgeons, because they handle that situation much better than I would. Needless to say, I don’t think of abortions as evil. I doubt anyone who performs them believes that - there’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/28 "2003-04-26T15:59:23Z")
Trolls live under bridges. Didn’t anyone ever read you **The Three Billygoats Gruff?** 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 **Gaudere** ---
**Author:** ![look\_ninjas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@look\_ninjas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/look_ninjas)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/29 "2003-04-26T16:26:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*As I’ve pointed out numerous times before, _Doe v Bolton_ defined “health” so broadly as to encompass even emotional and familial(!) factors, which hardly amount to “compelling medical reasons.” As a result, even [the Senate Judiciary Committee](http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_8.asp) was forced to conclude that there is effectively no legal barrier to obtaining an abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Additionally, Dr. Martin Haskell admitted that the vast majority of partial-birth abortions he performs (a late-term procedure) are done [for elective reasons, rather than medical ones](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/whypbaperformed.html). \*\* **Diogenes** gave you a perfectly valid statistic. The fact that there is no _legal_ barrier to late-term abortions does not negate the fact that they are very rarely done. Nor does anecdotal evidence from _one_ doctor. The point is, making abortions illegal isn’t going to stop them happening. Making them unnecessary is. If everyone has access to proper, reliable birth control (including “morning after pills” in case of emergency) and knows how to use it correctly, and doesn’t feel guilty or ashamed for doing so… well, maybe then we might get somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/30 "2003-04-26T16:50:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by look!ninjas \* > **Diogenes gave you a perfectly valid statistic.** No, he didn’t. He **asserted** that late-term abortions are only performed for compelling medical reasons, and cited no source for that claim. I, on the other hand, cited a source to the contrary. > [@](#): > > \*\* The fact that there is no _legal_ barrier to late-term abortions does not negate the fact that they are very rarely done. Nor does anecdotal evidence from _one_ doctor. \*\* Quite the contrary. A single testimony from a practicing abortionist is all it takes to disprove the claim that late-term abortions are only done for compelling medical reasons. Moreover, it’s interesting to note that you’re quick to object to Dr. Haskell’s admission, yet perfectly willing to accept **Diogenes** ’ unsubstantiated claim, even in the absence of any corroborating sources. But if you want additional evidence, consider the admission made by [Dr. James McMahon,](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/pbafact2.html), who testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that he regularly aborted perfectly healthy babies, even into the ninth month of pregnancy Or the famous [Dr. George Tiller](http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html) of Wichita, Kansas, who regularly performs third trimester abortions for non-medical reasons. This information is corroborated by the [Kansas Department of Health](http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html). Now, perhaps one would still insist that these abortions are only performed for urgent medical reasons… but the evidence indicates otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/31 "2003-04-26T17:42:32Z")
Here is a [cite](http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm) for my statistics. > [@](#): > > Gestational age 1992 1 1998 2 > Less than 6 weeks 19% > Less than 7 weeks 13.8% > In the 7th week 15.2 18% > In the 8th week 20.9 19% > Less than 13 weeks 88% 88% > During the first trimester 91% > During the second trimester 9% > Elective terminations during third trimester: essentially none; one source estimates 100 (0.01%); others estimate a few thousand per year in the U.S. > Required hysterotomies: about 4,000/yr. (0.2%). There are many others. You will not be able to find a cite that contradicts these statistics. Finding a couple of loony anti-abortion doctors to invent stories about imaginary ninth month “elective” abortion is easy enough to do. What you _can’t_ do is show that such abortions comprise more than the tiniest fraction of all abortions performed. Third trimester abortions are rarely, if ever, performed electively. I defy you provide a cite for an actual case where a full term fetus was aborted purely electively. i don’t want some doctor’s assurance, i want a cite of an actual _case_ with names and dates. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/32 "2003-04-26T18:22:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Finding a couple of loony anti-abortion doctors to invent stories about imaginary ninth month “elective” abortion is easy enough to do. \*\* These so-called “loony anti-abortion doctors” that you mentioned are nothing of the sort! Rather, they are _ **practicing abortionists** _, and have no reason to concoct claims that are damaging to their own cause. Of course, if you’re going to dismiss an abortionist as being “anti-abortion,” then I can only shake my head in amazement and dismay. ---
**Author:** ![NutWrench](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nutwrench/32/20193_2.png) [@NutWrench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutWrench)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/33 "2003-04-26T18:35:34Z")
An “Abortionist” ? That’s like, a philanthropist, right? ---
**Author:** ![Consuela\_Bobuela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Consuela\_Bobuela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Consuela_Bobuela)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/34 "2003-04-26T19:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > Or the famous [Dr. George Tiller](http://www.abortionessay.com/files/Tiller.html) of Wichita, Kansas, who regularly performs third trimester abortions for non-medical reasons. This information is corroborated by the [Kansas Department of Health](http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html). > > Now, perhaps one would still insist that these abortions are only performed for urgent medical reasons… but the evidence indicates otherwise. \*\* Once again, Dr George Tiller does not perform third trimerster abortions for non medical reasons. I have posted this information before, but perhaps you missed it. Here is a [document](http://www.drtiller.com/ic1b.html) women must read and sign before obtaining an abortion at Tiller’s clinic. Pay close attention to items numbered 11 and 12. ---
**Author:** ![jack\_ss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c77e96/32.png) [@jack\_ss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jack_ss)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/35 "2003-04-26T19:55:12Z")
“Abortionist”. “Partial-birth Abortion”. These are not medical or scientific terms. These terms were made up by right-wing propagandists who want to force their religious teachings into legislation. Let’s call things what they really are. When we start a discussion using propaganda instead of the correct terms, we’re starting with unequal advantage to the people with an agenda. **Mandelstam** already informed you of this: abortions are performed by **Gynecologists**. These people are physicians who specialize in women’s health. Abortions are just a small part of their jobs, which they probably don’t enjoy and for which they run the risk of being murdered by terrorists; murdered by people who call them _abortionists_. My opinion? the abortion debate is a non-issue, a distraction used in politics to appeal to people’s emotions and keep them from focusing on real issues. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/36 "2003-04-26T21:04:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Consuela Bobuela \* > \*\*Once again, Dr George Tiller does not perform third trimerster abortions for non medical reasons. I have posted this information before, but perhaps you missed it. > > Here is a [document](http://www.drtiller.com/ic1b.html) women must read and sign before obtaining an abortion at Tiller’s clinic. Pay close attention to items numbered 11 and 12. \*\* And the article to which I linked shows otherwise. Moreover, even if you disregard the controversy regarding George Tiller, there still remains the other testimonies from abortionists who admit to performing late-term abortions for non-medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/37 "2003-04-26T21:08:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Consuela Bobuela \* > \*\*Here is a [document](http://www.drtiller.com/ic1b.html) women must read and sign before obtaining an abortion at Tiller’s clinic. Pay close attention to items numbered 11 and 12. \*\* In case you missed it, the article which I cited **specifically** mentioned those clauses, and cited evidence that late-term abortions were still performed for non-medical reasons. In other words, the points which you brought up were specifically addressed. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/38 "2003-04-26T21:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jack@ss \* > \*\* > **Mandelstam** already informed you of this: abortions are performed by **Gynecologists**. These people are physicians who specialize in women’s health. Abortions are just a small part of their jobs, which they probably don’t enjoy and for which they run the risk of being murdered by terrorists; murdered by people who call them abortionists._\* Look, this is getting ridiculous. An abortionist is simply a physician who performs abortions. It is simply a more specific term that “physician,” “gynecologist” or “OB/GYN.” It is only a pejorative term if one considers abortion to be a negative act. Moreover, can you show any causal or corollary link between killing abortion doctors and the use of the word “abortionist”? Besides, that’s all beside the point. The articles I cited provided testimonies from physicians who practiced abortion – REGARDLESS of what one may choose to call them. The term is ultimately irrelevant, for the purposes of this discussion. > [@](#): > > \*\* > My opinion? the abortion debate is a non-issue, a distraction used in politics to appeal to people’s emotions and keep them from focusing on real issues. \*\* Interesting. It seems to me that all this outrage over the use of the term “abortionist” is a non-issue, a distraction used to divert attention from the damaging testimonies of the physicians in question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/39 "2003-04-26T22:58:13Z")
There is no such thing as an “abortionist.” That is not a recognized medical specialty, it’s a political term used to villify doctors much like “abortion mill,” or “partial-birth abortion.” None of these things exist. They are mythical. The use of these terms is an _ipso facto_ attempt to derail the debate into rank emotionalism. You still have yet to produce a single documented case of a purely elective third-term abortion. Showing a doctor who claims without evidence to have performed them is not proof of anything. Show me a name and a date. Ant doctor who would perform a eighth or ninth month abortion for purely elective reasons would not be regarded as ethical in the the field and would be a an anomoly not the rule. And even if you _can_ produce a case, you still will not have rebutted the point that third-term abortions represent only about one hundredth of one percent of all abortions. My point was that the video cited in the OP was misleading if not outright fraudulent. It represented a distorted, cartoonish vision of what abortion providers actually do. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175/40 "2003-04-26T23:16:55Z")
So even if multiple practicing physicians confess to have performed multiple late-term abortions for non-medical reasons, that STILL isn’t good enough for you? Boy. Talk about denial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/abortionists/171175.md?page=3)